Fr. Pavone on the use of graphic images of abortion

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Then it shouldn’t be hard to find at least one study that says showing tractor trailer sized graphic images of mutilitated bloodcovered dismembered corpses of babies to children ages 2-7 without their parents’ permission has a neutral or positive effect on those children, should it?
And if I was willing to use a bogus study, not peer-reviewed, and based on a different point, that’s what I’d do.

But I believe in honesty in debate.
Or that doing so is more effective in teaching them to value the lives of children before birth than showing them pictures of normally developing babies?

Or that doing so is more effective than other ways of teaching them that it is wrong to hurt others?

Or that showing these pictures in ways that knowingly allow access to young children is more effective than showing them is ways that do not?
As I said, I could find any “study” I wanted – but there are no valid, peer-reviewed studies on the point that prove either your point or the opposite point.

Have you finished your assignment yet?
 
I missed this. Who accused you of bombing clincs? That is terrible!
There is another thread on this subject – in the other one, someone who was outraged that someone would suggest she was not pro-life accused me – and by extension all on my side of the discussion – of bombing abortion clinics.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=49299&page=35
Out of interest, are you the type that blows up clinics to prevent abortions? Do you consider that to be an acceptable way to save babies? That would save babies but have harmful consequences. I am curious - would you go that far?
Now I don’t understand this. There are many ways to work to end abortion. There is no need to attack fellow workers in the field, simply because we disagree with their tactics. And there is certainly no need to make accusations like that.
 
Might that be because “is abortion wrong” is not the topic of the thread? Or that we are not (presumably) on this thread talking to people who perform abortions, but are decidedly on this thread talking to people who choose to parade tractor trailer sized graphic color photos of mutilated, dismembered bloody corpses of babies indiscriminately in front of young children?

Having done something inappropriate for 25 years does not suddenly make it acceptable, desirable or good. Nor am I willing to adopt a laissez-faire attitude toward something that I believe is actively detrimental to young children, regardless of your goals for doing so.
Fortunately we don’t have to depend on your opinion has to what is appropriate and what is not. While you stand on the sidelines taking potshots at those working in the ministry we’re out fighting this evil.
 
This is truly an unfair statement. There are ways to combat abortion without offending children. It is not an either/or thing.
Since no one is presented any creible evidence that we are offending children the whole argument is specious from the get go. It is a common tactic of those who support abortion to try to change the discussion to anything but discussing what actually goes on in these clinics. Once again it saddens me to see so many crocodile tears cried over allegedly offending children while 4000 children a day never get the chance to be offended in the first place.
 
Now I don’t understand this. There are many ways to work to end abortion. There is no need to attack fellow workers in the field, simply because we disagree with their tactics. And there is certainly no need to make accusations like that.
To my knowledge you and I are the only ones in this thread that actually work in the Ministry. It It is really easy to stand on the sidelines and give advice - much harder to actually take action in this Evil.
 
To my knowledge you and I are the only ones in this thread that actually work in the Ministry. It It is really easy to stand on the sidelines and give advice - much harder to actually take action in this Evil.
But I’m the only one accused of blowing up abortion clinics.😛
Out of interest, are you the type that blows up clinics to prevent abortions? Do you consider that to be an acceptable way to save babies? That would save babies but have harmful consequences. I am curious - would you go that far?
 
There is another thread on this subject – in the other one, someone who was outraged that someone would suggest she was not pro-life accused me – and by extension all on my side of the discussion – of bombing abortion clinics.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=49299&page=35

Now I don’t understand this. There are many ways to work to end abortion. There is no need to attack fellow workers in the field, simply because we disagree with their tactics. And there is certainly no need to make accusations like that.
I agree that accusing someone (you or anyone) of these types of underhanded topics is absolutely terrible. 😦
 
It is a common tactic of those who support abortion to try to change the discussion to anything but discussing what actually goes on in these clinics.
What about those of us who do not support abortion? Just because we don’t agree w/ all pro-life tactics doesn’t mean we are applauding abortion.
 
What about those of us who do not support abortion? Just because we don’t agree w/ all pro-life tactics doesn’t mean we are applauding abortion.
I you dont agree BUT are not involved in the minstry then you should stand aside and let those who work in the ministry do what they consider best.
 
KarenNC said:

I see you used a version of PDE that omitted any mention of remote and proximal objects. Your mistake.

1*. The act itself must be morally good or at least indifferent*
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KarenNC:
The act of showing graphic images of violence to young children is neither morally good nor indifferent.
The showing of graphic images of violence to young children is not the proximate object. It is the remote object.

Trying showing some good faith and use the complete PDE to which I have linked earlier.
 
40.png
estesbob:
To my knowledge you and I are the only ones in this thread that actually work in the Ministry.
Me too! I even got threatened by a far left radical pro-abortion organization for helping to uncover a money trail back to a member of parliament.

Ani looks left and right for ignore list, then…

“And anothah thing… I agree with everything estesbob and vern humphrey have said!” 😛
 
I agree that accusing someone (you or anyone) of these types of underhanded topics is absolutely terrible. 😦
And that’s my whole point.

There are many ways of fighting abortion. Using the pictures has value, even if some of us are turned off by it. Let’s not turn on each other – rather let’s support each other and work to put an end to this grisly business.
 
I see you used a version of PDE that omitted any mention of remote and proximal objects. Your mistake.

1*. The act itself must be morally good or at least indifferent*

The showing of graphic images of violence to young children is not the proximate object. It is the remote object.

Trying showing some good faith and use the complete PDE to which I have linked earlier.
I used the one from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that was listed as coming from the New Catholic Encyclopedia. Does your version differ from that?

You did not, that I could find, actually link anything. Perhaps you would be willing to link to your source so that we can look at that source’s definition of terms? You simply stated it. In looking for further defnition and clarification of the terms used, all the formulations of the principle of double effect that I can find reference it as follows:

The foreseen beneficial effects must not be achieved by the means of the foreseen harmful effects, and no other means of achieving those effects are available;
ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/key_principles/double_effect.asp

Third, the evil effect must not function as the means by which the good effect is produced.
stjohns.edu/academics/centers/teach/forum/forum_2007_Rourke.stj

An indirect intention is a circumstantial intention that the agent would not consider as the immediately desired result of an action, but as an inevitable and unavoidable consequence of choosing the means to the desired result. Thus, an indirectly intended bad consequence would be a foreseen and merely tolerated effect of the action but not the ultimate reason for performing the action. The undesirable effect is in a certain sense intended, since one still chooses the means, i.e., performs the action, but ***it is only indirectly intended since it would have been avoided if possible. ***This understanding of direct and indirect intent is an essential element of the principle of double effect.
ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/issues/intention.asp#ind_int

The principle of double effect is directed at well-intentioned agents who ask whether they may cause a serious harm in order to bring about a good end of overriding moral importance when it is impossible to bring about the good end without the harm. A third common misinterpretation of double effect is to assume that the principle assures agents that they may do this provided that their ultimate aim is a good one that is ordinarily worth pursuing, the proportionality condition is satisfied and the harm is minimized. That is not sufficient: it must also be true that causing the harm is not so implicated as part of their means to this good end that it must count as something that is instrumentally intended to bring about the good end. Some discussions of double effect wrongly assume that it permits acts that cause certain kinds of harm because those harms were not the agent’s ultimate aim or were regretted rather than welcomed. The principle of double effect is much more specific than that. Harms that were produced regretfully and only for the sake of producing a good end may be prohibited by double effect because they were brought about as part of the agent’s means to realizing the good end.
plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/

There has yet to be any evidence put forward that shows that the organizations advocating the use of these images in situations in which they are knowingly exposing young children to them is something that they even give lip service to seeking to avoid or that such is indeed absolutely unavoidable if they are to achieve their desired result.

The action in question is not simply “showing graphic images of dismembered corpses of children.” It is “showing graphic images of dismembered corpses of children in venues in which children ages 2-7 are known to be likely to see them.”
 
The action in question is not simply “showing graphic images of dismembered corpses of children.” It is “showing graphic images of dismembered corpses of children in venues in which children ages 2-7 are known to be likely to see them.”
And that is different from showing them a life-size crucifix in full color, how?
 
And that is different from showing them a life-size crucifix in full color, how?
Show me a picture of the crucifix in question and we can compare the two.

What is the reason that you choose to use photographs of actual bodies of dead babies instead of drawings or statues of them in your protests?
 
Show me a picture of the crucifix in question and we can compare the two.
You’ve never seen a crucifix?😛
What is the reason that you choose to use photographs of actual bodies of dead babies instead of drawings or statues of them in your protests?
If we had photographs of the Crucifixion, we’d use them. But we don’t.

You do know that the Crucifixion was considered so shameful by early Christians it was rarely depicted? And that the first known representation of it was graffiti mocking Christians?

Yet today, you see it in every Catholic church. We not only have three in the Sanctuary of our chruch (one over the tabernacle, one on the processional cross and a life-size one on the rear wall) but we have a depiction of the process, from the sentencing to the corpus being laid in the tomb, going all around the walls.
 
The use or non-use of graphic images is puzzling to me.

We have no objection to television programs such as CSI. In fact, CSI is so popular that two spin-offs have emerged for Miami and New York. It’s just good business, after all. And they are wildly popular.

There ARE objections to showing, in the United States, graphic images of people who jumped from the World Trade Center. Because they remind the American people of what went on that terrible day. We also, in the United States, do not show images of people in certain other countries celebrating the destruction of the World Trade Center.

And there are objections to showing graphic images of aborted babies because they remind us of what goes on in the performance of an abortion.

Political correctness.

Censorship, indeed.
 
You’ve never seen a crucifix?😛
I have seen hundreds of them in hundreds of different styles. Some I would agree are inappropriate to show young children.

That argument is roughly equivalent to saying “you’ve never seen an abortion protest sign?” There’s a world of difference in the choice of portrayal.
 
I have seen hundreds of them in hundreds of different styles. Some I would agree are inappropriate to show young children.
And you’d be dead wrong.

Although inappropriate reaction on the part of their mothers could make anything traumatic.
 
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