Fr. Pavone on the use of graphic images of abortion

[seekerz]

Okay, I’m leaving, honest But before I go, how many of you have ever even seen the truth trucks in real life or the airplane flying the banner or a side of the road demonstration using the large pictures? To be honest, I never have. I live east of the Mississippi now, but I lived in California for 40 years - never saw them once. I’ve seen them at organized demonstrations, been part of the group holding them, but otherwise - never. Methinks this argument might be arguing for arguing’s sake.

I have seen them flown behind a plane over July 4th celebrations in a large park full of families with little kids.

My first reaction was relief that the images were not clear and that my youngest could not yet read. I’m simply not prepared to discuss abortion and related issues yet: childhood is meant to be enjoyed and certain types of preparation for life can wait a year or two.

The loss of innocence of my son will not stop people from doing something that certainly has been practiced for several hundred years and maybe longer.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

seekerz:

…I’m simply not prepared to discuss abortion and related issues yet:

Ah! You’re not prepared. So that’s the issue. How do you think you could get prepared? Do you think you might ask if anyone has any links to preparatory materials for parents?

seekerz:

childhood is meant to be enjoyed and certain types of preparation for life can wait a year or two.

Until you’re prepared?

seekerz:

The loss of innocence of my son will not stop people from doing something that certainly has been practiced for several hundred years and maybe longer.

Your post couldn’t be more vague, could it? Wonder if you could provide us with a statement as to cause and effect, please? Thank you.

As for the loss of innocence, I believe Adam and Eve took care of that nicely for us quite a while back.

 

[seekerz]

Ah! You’re not prepared. So that’s the issue. How do you think you could get prepared? Do you think you might ask if anyone has any links to preparatory materials for parents?

Until you’re prepared?

Your post couldn’t be more vague, could it? Wonder if you could provide us with a statement as to cause and effect, please? Thank you.

As for the loss of innocence, I believe Adam and Eve took care of that nicely for us quite a while back.

I have been endowed by the Creator with the inalienable right to raise my child as I, not you, see fit.

As far as loss of innocence, I do believe that through baptism we are cleansed from original sin…

Sorry if you found my assertion that abortion has been practiced for centuries, vague. It’s an abominable practice that’s plagued societies over the ages, so I rather doubt that upsetting my child with graphic photos of dead babies would make a difference to that fact.

 

[sprout]

I have seen them flown behind a plane over July 4th celebrations in a large park full of families with little kids.

My first reaction was relief that the images were not clear and that my youngest could not yet read. I’m simply not prepared to discuss abortion and related issues yet: childhood is meant to be enjoyed and certain types of preparation for life can wait a year or two.

The loss of innocence of my son will not stop people from doing something that certainly has been practiced for several hundred years and maybe longer.

I’ve asked myself several times in the course of this discussion, “if I were driving with my granchild in my car and we were stuck in traffic with one of these trucks near us, and he asked about the image, what would I say?”

Um, sweetie, those are pictures of dead babies?

Um, sweetie, some mommies kill their babies?

Um, sweetie, isn’t it horrible how some mommies kill their babies?

really, what DOES one say to the innocent when the very image is robbing them of that innocence?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

seekerz:

I have been endowed by the Creator with the inalienable right to raise my child as I, not you, see fit.

seeker? oh seeker? hello? seeeeeeeker? Has anyone said ONCE that you do not have a right to raise your child as you see fit?

NO!

What we are saying, seeker, is that

YOU DO NOT HAVE
THE RIGHT TO LIMIT
THE FREE SPEECH
OF OTHERS.

What part of that do you not understand?

seekerz:

As far as loss of innocence, I do believe that through baptism we are cleansed from original sin…

Then what are you talking about? Only a few posts ago you were blaming room-size posters for your child’s loss of innocence. Which is it going to be? You can’t have it both ways. Truth cannot contradict truth.

seekerz:

Sorry if you found my assertion that abortion has been practiced for centuries, vague.

Your apology is accepted. Try not to be vague again, please.

seekerz:

It’s an abominable practice that’s plagued societies over the ages, so I rather doubt that upsetting my child with graphic photos of dead babies would make a difference to that fact.

I see. So ‘is’ in your world equates to ‘should’. Because something is done, it is right to do it. Well that about cans Christianity then. If your theory is true, then what did good did the Crucifixion do?

Well robbery has been done for centuries too. And, according to your logic, you should be able to prove your point by leaving your wallet on the front seat of your car and leaving the door open at the corner of the busiest streets in your city.

Show us then how you are alright with being robbed because robbery has been going on for centuries. OK? Then we’ll understand your point.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have been endowed by the Creator with the inalienable right to raise my child as I, not you, see fit.
.

Why all the emphasis on “my right” instead of “my responsibility?”

It seems to me some of us regard children as possessions,
not as someone we are entrusted with and expected to nurture and educate.

 

[KarenNC]

I live in Southern California. Fortunately now in my area whenever we have organized Prolife events it is routinely requested “no graphic images” but this wasn’t case up until 3 or 4 years ago. I’m not sure why the change, but I suspect it may have to do with a certain organization moving it’s operation to Karen’s neck of the woods.

I think the particular previous location for this one was in Texas. I am not clear on where they have all their offices, as they seem to still have offices in Texas as well. Could be they have a main office in Texas and move subsidiary branches around, as the time frame is about right, IIRC.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Why all the emphasis on “my right” instead of “my responsibility?”

I would ask why all the emphasis on one person’s right instead of the corresponding rights of other people?

 

[estesbob]

I’ve asked myself several times in the course of this discussion, “if I were driving with my granchild in my car and we were stuck in traffic with one of these trucks near us, and he asked about the image, what would I say?”

Um, sweetie, those are pictures of dead babies?

Um, sweetie, some mommies kill their babies?

Um, sweetie, isn’t it horrible how some mommies kill their babies?

really, what DOES one say to the innocent when the very image is robbing them of that innocence?

At least you dont have to say "well sweeite those may seem lilke horrible pictures but they are the result of a womens sacred right to choose and, sweetie, we must make sure women always have the right to kill their babies.

 

[sprout]

rights and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.

parent’s have a right AND a responsibility for their minor children.

 

[vern_humphrey]

rights and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.

parent’s have a right AND a responsibility for their minor children.

And yet I see no one addressing their responsibilities here – only expressing outrage that someone else shows pictures that they don’t like, and using children as a pretense to attack those people.

 

[Teflon93]

Is the 3rd tri when they give ultrasounds? I am sure they can give them earlier.

continued…

They can do them earlier (our first one was at 7 weeks) but for the 4D’s they recommend Week 26 or beyond as the baby looks like one would expect a baby to look.

 

[KarenNC]

And yet I see no one addressing their responsibilities here – only expressing outrage that someone else shows pictures that they don’t like, and using children as a pretense to attack those people.

You’ve said this before. I will respond as before—

The time I have spent on this thread over the past couple of weeks is part of what I see as my responsibility. My responsibility to speak out when I see folks engaging in actions that are harmful to children.

I also have the responsibility to take an active role in my child’s education in all matters, including screening out what I believe to be inappropriate attempts on the part of others to educate her without my consent. This is no different from screening out inappropriate televsion and movie content, choosing not to take her to places that I consider inappropriate for a child her age, not feeding her certain foods before she was developmentally ready, allowing her increasing freedom and responsibility as she gains maturity, etc. It’s called being a responsible parent.

No one has ever said that any parent who wants to show these pictures to their own children or to seek out organizations that are willing to teach their preschoolers about abortion do not have the right to do so. If they feel it is important for their children at that age, then, yes, they even have a responsibility to do so. But do as the rest of society seems able and willing to do, give them a chance to make the choice.

 

[boppaid]

It seems to me that your question assumes that when a preschool child is left in the care of other adults that those adults would be incapable of calming and reassuring a child who was bothered about something they saw. I don’t see it. Your question makes no sense to me because I never once would have dreamed of leaving my children in the care of anyone who could not care for them properly and that would include calming and reassuring when needed.

I see where you’re coming from. I do believe that certain people can care for preschoolers properly, but it really isn’t their job to discuss abortion with them. I don’t think want the preschool teacher or assistant having to explain abortion to them. It’s just not acceptable to me. I also don’t want my friends and family doing so either. At age 4 or 5, it truly is mine and my husband’s job to give them information as needed. I guess I do see why my question made no sense to you at first glance, but now do you see where I’m coming from?

 

[boppaid]

Okay, I am taking a deep breath…If I remember correctly we were talking PREschoolers.

This is not meant to come off snarky (and I hope it doesn’t but you never know on a bb as there’s no voice inflection)…they do have preschool where you come from, right? I’m not sure I understand why you assume they would never be on a school bus…it’s school after all. Maybe it’s a geographic thing. Where I live, preschool starts at age 3 (most kids) and age 4 (for nearly all kids). Could geographic region be the cause of our disconnect here, maybe?

 

[boppaid]

I still see it as a stupid question. Furthermore, I believe it was grasping at straws. I can’t help but think that it wasn’t thought out before being asked.

Truly, what makes this a stupid question? It’s not like people’s children are with them 24/7? Especially when it comes to working parents. I guess I can’t see why it’s considered stupid to you? I don’t understand what I’m missing here. (and I do mean that sincerely).

And, Karen described what I meant perfectly here:

Large numbers of these children are in daycares, preschools, kindergartens, with babysitters, in summer day camp programs, on field trips, etc either full or part-time. These may be privately or publicly funded. You are then so sure that the views on this particular subject held by every teacher, every bus driver, every aide, every bus monitor, every every extended family member, etc are in full accordance with the views you want conveyed to your child on this subject that you are happy to entrust such instruction to them?

 

[boppaid]

"It seems to me far more effort is being put into denouncing people who use the pictures than the people who make them possible. And little or no effort is being put into developing the parenting skills needed to prepare children for the real world.

I understand what you’re trying to say, but I think the reason you see it that way is that this thread isn’t supposed to be about how bad abortion is. It’s about the use of graphic images. I think we’re all just trying to stay on topic here.

 

[boppaid]

(i’m not actually going anywhere, just getting off the computer. Eventually. No, now. Bye. Have a great weekend. Although I’ll probably pop in once in a while - I can’t resisit

I’m not sure if you’ve left yet…but good luck with that! I keep trying to do the same. I have laundry to do, darnit! These boards are addictive sometimes. Especially when we are discussing things we are all so obviously passionate about.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You’ve said this before. I will respond as before—

The time I have spent on this thread over the past couple of weeks is part of what I see as my responsibility. My responsibility to speak out when I see folks engaging in actions that are harmful to children.

Are you sure your feelings as expressed on this forum aren’t leaking through to your children?

Have you carefully examined what others have said and tried putting those techniques into effect?

The more I see of this debate, the less sure I am it’s about children and the more convinced I become it’s about the parents’ attitudes.

 

[boppaid]

As for the loss of innocence, I believe Adam and Eve took care of that nicely for us quite a while back.

You’ve got a point. Although I could swear I remember Pope John Paul saying something one time about the importance of preserving children’s innocence. (I could be mistaken.)