Fr. Pavone on the use of graphic images of abortion

[boppaid]

I think it would be a good reminder for all of us on this thread to review the guidelines and rules. It appears as if so many have been broken. I am sure this is unintentional as emotions run high in a topic such as this, but let’s remember the following:

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and

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God bless.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Then we both remain unpersuaded and it’s perfectly fine with me that you have a different opinion on use of graphic abortion photos? How do you feel about my having an opinion that disagrees with yours?

I feel that you have no evidence to support your opinion. I also feel that you have no interest in looking at any evidence. I feel that way because virtually none of your posts references any evidence presented by others or presents any of your own.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

bmmckinney:

Warning… there are things in the world that cause feelings to be upset, unplug the tv, turn off the radio, close the blinds, and keep your children indoors!

But they are not proposing to do that. They are proposing to limit the free speech of others.

 

[Philothea53]

Are you saying that just because I would not have a teacher or bus driver explain abortion to my kid, it means I don’t trust these people?

Thank God if you are able to stay home with your child - some people just aren’t able to, so they entrust care of their children to others. That doesn’t necessarily include delegating responsibility for teaching them about abortion.

Incidentally, what did you say to your child when introducing the topic of abortion and at what age was this done?

seekerz, honey, are you really this dense or are you just arguing for arguing’s sake? Of course, I don’t expect the driver of a bus of young children to explain abortion to a child, but they darn sight better know how to calm and reassure a child and distract said child if there is something that frightened the child over which the bus driver has no control. To do exactly what I would do, and I expect you would do, if the situation happened while you were not with your child and entrusted to someone’s temporary care. It is never the responsibility of that bus driver to teach anything other than maybe the Golden Rule - in abstract terms - to a child entrusted to their care.

I posted at length about the ages of my children and grandchildren and how they were a part of my prolife activities. Please find the post.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Indeed, very well said and worth pondering on and applying to all children: the born and the unborn.

You cherry picked this:

bmmckinney:

What you do to the least of me, you do to me!

And completely ignored this:

Warning… there are things in the world that cause feelings to be upset, unplug the tv, turn off the radio, close the blinds, and keep your children indoors!

For if they are taken into the world they might see many things that will upset them and might even make them cry! Now one of those things are photos of the reality of abortion. Now much different then rap on the radio, pornography, or violence on tv, these photos and videos of butchered aborted babies help save born babies, help save souls, and are following the only historically effective methods of ending injustice in semi-free countries!

Yet people who claim to be against these atrocities don’t understand this fact and want these truths not to be shown simply because they believe that feelings of born children is worse then the murder of unborn children.

Come on people stop being so selfish! This is such a rediculous argument that it isn’t almost worth justifying. I look forward to the day you tell your grandchildren when they ask you what you did to end abortion and you have to tell them nothing in shame. History has already given you folks a label, its called apathetic bystander. You were the whites during Civil Rights who did nothing but hide in your homes, you were men during the abolition movement who did not speak against the oppressive males in society, you were the people during the holocaust who stood by and watched the Nazi’s execute Jews and others in the street, and today you are the pro-feelings people who care more to spend your energy on sheilding born children from photos of unborn children who are killed by born people for selfish reasons. History will not be kind to you and I can only guess to what God will say if you ever face Him.

How can you possibly justify stonewalling mckinney in this way? Yet you have done this consistently right through the thread with other posters.

Does it not occur to you that, if your point of view is so weak, so unsubstantiated that the only things left to you are rhetorical manoevres, then maybe you ought to take a second look at your point of view? And maybe a FIRST look at ours?

 

[Philothea53]

I think it would be a good reminder for all of us on this thread to review the guidelines and rules. It appears as if so many have been broken. I am sure this is unintentional as emotions run high in a topic such as this, but let’s remember the following:

and

forum rules

God bless.

Did you have a specific point you wanted to bring to our attention? I read the forum rules when I joined; I don’t see the need to read them in the middle of a thread unless posted by a moderator and I’m pretty sure the mod would point to the exact infraction and attendant rule.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

For those of you are ‘not prepared’ to prepare your children for encounters with room-size posters of aborted babies – as if none of you could look up things for yourselves – here is some help from Fr Pavone:

Speaking to Children about Abortion

“Sharon, are there people out there who are bigger than you?” “Yes!” she exclaimed. “Are there people out there who are older than you?” “Yes!” she exclaimed. “Are there people out there who are stronger than you?” “Yes!” she exclaimed.

“Are there people out there who are more important than you?” “No!” she declared, with even more conviction in her voice. All the other children understood the same thing. And thus they understood the key problem in the abortion tragedy. Abortion builds on the lie that the smallest and weakest among us have less value and can even be discarded…

Teaching children about abortion is not as difficult as many think. Children are particularly receptive to the message of equality of all people, and to the truth that might does not make right. They have a keen sense of justice and fairness. They know what it means to need protection from dangers they can neither withstand nor understand. They know what a baby is, and they know it is wrong to kill a baby…

It is not necessary to teach children the details of reproduction before they learn that abortion is a bad thing. The basis for teaching about abortion is not the reproductive system, but the dignity and worth of every human person… The basis for teaching young people about abortion is the same basis on which we teach that the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” applies to any other category of people…

If you decide to comment on this, then please read it first because I will test you. For those of you who are ‘not prepared’ to prepare your children, then consider yourselves in school.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

And here is what they could get if you don’t prepare yourselves to prepare your children:

Abortion lessons for schoolchildren

Schoolchildren should be given compulsory lessons about the benefits of abortion, ministers’ advisers on sex education claim…

And the abortion teaching should combat ‘myths’ that turn teenagers away from terminating their pregnancies, a report for ministers said. It cited the idea that abortion can lead to infertility as misleading.

The recommendation from the Independent Advisory Group on Teenage Pregnancy would mean - if accepted by the Government - that pupils would be taught about abortion from the age of 11.But they could also have abortion lessons in primary schools that teach children from the age of five…

Each year around 4,000 abortions are performed on girls under 16, with another 35,000 on girls between 16 and 19…

Let the parents give some facts to the teachers: you are three or four times more likely to die in the year after an abortion than if you had the baby. Your next baby after the abortion is more likely premature, small and with cerebral palsy. Younger girls having abortions are more at risk from bleeding, infection leading to infertility, psychological distress and depression. All this is learned from recent clinical studies of good repute. - Dr A. M. Houghton, Sheffield

 

[seekerz]

A personal attack is an attack against the person.

It is not a disagreement with what the person says.

You didn’t go to the material I linked on logic and fallacies, did you? How can anyone help you if you simply refuse to learn?

This is the trouble isn’t it? That you don’t know how to prepare your child but are too proud to admit that you could learn how to prepare your child.

Feeling a little desperate now that it is clear that you have run out of substantive material to contribute to the discussion? Have to grab at straws? Make rash accusations?

I haven’t run out of substantive material at all, btw. I haven’t even started. And where I leave off I know Vern, e-bob, and Philothea have all sorts of information that I haven’t even dreamed off.

You, on the other hand, have what? You want to shut down the poster campaign because you don’t want to learn how to prepare your child because you don’t want to learn how to prepare your child because you don’t want to learn how to prepare your child… and so on ad tedium.

Chill, sister. Who wants to shut down the poster campaign? What are you talking about?

 

[seekerz]

I feel that you have no evidence to support your opinion. I also feel that you have no interest in looking at any evidence. I feel that way because virtually none of your posts references any evidence presented by others or presents any of your own.

I asked how you felt about my having a different opinion, not what you think of my opinion. There is a subtle difference.

 

[Philothea53]

I asked how you felt about my having a different opinion, not what you think of my opinion. There is a subtle difference.

I feel sad.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I asked how you felt about my having a different opinion, not what you think of my opinion. There is a subtle difference.

Were you not paying attention the first time when I gave you my answer? You asked how I felt about you having a different opinion. I answered you; to wit, if your opinion is reasoned and referenced, then I don’t have a problem with it. If it is not – as yours is not – then I have a problem with it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Chill, sister. Who wants to shut down the poster campaign? What are you talking about?

Please do not ask me to chill when I am perfectly cool, dude.

I am talking about your posts so far. Remember? The opinions you posted over and over again.

You have yet to answer any of the questions I have asked you, yet you seem to be quick off the blocks asking your own questions.

Specifically, I have now posted material which will help parents prepare themselves to prepare their children to talk about abortion.

Speaking to Children about Abortion

And material as to who will be teaching your children what if you don’t prepare yourself.

Abortion lessons for schoolchildren

You folks who have been harping on not being prepared, what do you have to say about this material?

 

[seekerz]

seekerz, honey, are you really this dense or are you just arguing for arguing’s sake? Of course, I don’t expect the driver of a bus of young children to explain abortion to a child, but they darn sight better know how to calm and reassure a child and distract said child if there is something that frightened the child over which the bus driver has no control. To do exactly what I would do, and I expect you would do, if the situation happened while you were not with your child and entrusted to someone’s temporary care. It is never the responsibility of that bus driver to teach anything other than maybe the Golden Rule - in abstract terms - to a child entrusted to their care.

I posted at length about the ages of my children and grandchildren and how they were a part of my prolife activities. Please find the post.

Is it really necessary to use the words ‘dense’ and ‘stupid’ when referring to others’ posts? We were talking about a child on a bus seeing a graphic abortion ad on a truck etc. and I asked whether it would be appropriate for a bus driver to have to deal with the topic? Your response was to question whether we should be leaving our kids with people who couldn’t be trusted to calm/reassure them.

So, how exactly does it go?

5yr old: “Eek; ugh”
Bus attendant: “What’s wrong honey?”
5yr old pointing toward ad: “Did a monster get that baby? Is it dead?”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. Don’t be scared. It’s just a picture”
5yr old crying:“My mommy has a baby in her tummy, I don’t want monsters to get it!”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. You’ll be home soon and Mommy can explain it to you then.”
5yr old hysterical now: “Waah, waah, I want my Mommy. I want to go home…”

 

[seekerz]

You folks who have been harping on not being prepared, what do you have to say about this material?

I’d say you’re preaching to the choir.

The relevant question here is not how to teach a child about abortion, the question is whether it’s justified to exhibit graphic photos of dead and mutilated babies where small children are able to view them given the fact that these photos can be very upsetting to watch.

Since, I have seen at least one poster agree that they are upsetting to children, the next relevant question is: can the campaigns be conducted in such a way as to avoid or at least minimize the risk of children being exposed to said photos?

If I’m going to do something, I have to be the one to ensure it’s the right thing to do. It should not be left to others to prove to me that it’s wrong. Applied to the anti-abortion campaign, I’m obliged to ensure that the methods I use are correct, appropriate and within the bounds of common decency. My attitude should not be that others must prove my methods do not meet above-mentioned standards.

 

[Philothea53]

Is it really necessary to use the words ‘dense’ and ‘stupid’ when referring to others’ posts? We were talking about a child on a bus seeing a graphic abortion ad on a truck etc. and I asked whether it would be appropriate for a bus driver to have to deal with the topic? Your response was to question whether we should be leaving our kids with people who couldn’t be trusted to calm/reassure them.

So, how exactly does it go?

5yr old: “Eek; ugh”
Bus attendant: “What’s wrong honey?”
5yr old pointing toward ad: “Did a monster get that baby? Is it dead?”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. Don’t be scared. It’s just a picture”
5yr old crying:“My mommy has a baby in her tummy, I don’t want monsters to get it!”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. You’ll be home soon and Mommy can explain it to you then.”
5yr old hysterical now: “Waah, waah, I want my Mommy. I want to go home…”

How else would you have the bus driver treat your child? The same way you would. The same way you would if your child woke in the middle of the night screaming that there was a monster under his bed. What would you say to a child who sees a dead deer/dog/bird by the side of the road or in your yard? These all would elicit the same response from a parent/adult/caregiver. Children have many fears no matter how much one has tried to keep them in a bubble. None of them requires anything more than CALM REASSURANCE. One doesn’t have to be the parent even; a child can be calmly reassured by any caring adult and ofttimes even other children rise to the occasion. None of these scenarios requires educating the child or explaining anything more than everything is okay and that the child is safe.

Unless a child has received an education in what a baby looks like after going through the suction machine in an abortionist’s office, a 2 - 7 year old could not even identify the image on most of these truth trucks or banners as a baby. If a child saw the larger pictures of babies murdered by having their brains suctioned, a parent would give the requisite, "Ohhh. Poor baby. It must be hurt. His mommy will take care of him. Just like I’m taking care of you right now. I love you! (big hug and a raspberry kiss and child is giggling and incident over.) The same or similar could be used for any other situation. Parenting 101

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why all the focus on I, me, my and so on?

Why do we have posts like this:

Out of interest, are you the type that blows up clinics to prevent abortions? Do you consider that to be an acceptable way to save babies? That would save babies but have harmful consequences. I am curious - would you go that far?

Do you know what Vern? You are not worth the words. I am pulling out. I am sick of your extremism. You are not any better than a pro-choicer - just different in your approach! BTW you aren now on ignore and there to stay! Good riddance!

Once again, you are forcing me to have a conversation with my four year old about something that she does not have the experience or knowledge to comprehend.

“Why did the mommy not want her baby?”

“Because she was gang-raped, honey.”

“What’s gang-rape?”

So, you see, abortion is that act that you are portraying, but I am left with trying to explain all the actions that preceed the abortion.
Unless you want to make it easy for me and post gang-rape pictures.

5yr old: “Eek; ugh”
Bus attendant: “What’s wrong honey?”
5yr old pointing toward ad: “Did a monster get that baby? Is it dead?”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. Don’t be scared. It’s just a picture”
5yr old crying:“My mommy has a baby in her tummy, I don’t want monsters to get it!”
Bus attendant: “Shh, honey. You’ll be home soon and Mommy can explain it to you then.”
5yr old hysterical now: “Waah, waah, I want my Mommy. I want to go home…”

 

[Philothea53]

If I’m going to do something, I have to be the one to ensure it’s the right thing to do. It should not be left to others to prove to me that it’s wrong. Applied to the anti-abortion campaign, I’m obliged to ensure that the methods I use are correct, appropriate and within the bounds of common decency. My attitude should not be that others must prove my methods do not meet above-mentioned standards.

Finally something you’ve said that I wholeheartedly agree with. If you don’t like the use of the posters, don’t use them.

 

[Philothea53]

Is it really necessary to use the words ‘dense’ and ‘stupid’ when referring to others’ posts?

Quote:
Philothea53, you need to take a chill pill.

If you don’t like the debate, my suggestion is: avoid it.

Chill, sister.

---

Yep, some people get points made using words/phrases/sarcasm that others don’t like. You know what I mean, don’t you?

 

[seekerz]

Unless a child has received an education in what a baby looks like after going through the suction machine in an abortionist’s office, a 2 - 7 year old could not even identify the image on most of these truth trucks or banners as a baby.

Excuse me for asking, but if the picture looks like what gets suctioned into the machine aren’t we simply strengthening the “blob of tissue” argument, because tissue is what gets suctioned into the machine - not a formed baby.

As for small children not identifying pictures (which I assume you’re saying adults can identify), I wonder if we’re discussing the children of the present generation? Mine identified a magazine picture of a baby in the womb at about age 31/2.

If a child saw the larger pictures of babies murdered by having their brains suctioned, a parent would give the requisite, "Ohhh. Poor baby. It must be hurt. His mommy will take care of him. Just like I’m taking care of you right now. I love you! (big hug and a raspberry kiss and child is giggling and incident over.) The same or similar could be used for any other situation. Parenting 101

My question remains, what if he were not with the parent but with some adult who could only dare give vague, generic answers to his queries? Remember, this is the age when children ask the most questions? I could not imagine an incident as you describe without the persistent string of “why’s” characteristic of early childhood.

Also, my understanding is that those pictures are meant to evoke an emotional response in the viewer. Are you suggesting that children would not be upset by the pictures that would upset adults?