E
exnihilo
Guest
How is transubstantiation unintelligible? Plenty of people find they can comprehend the concept. To characterize these concepts as unintelligible is bizarre.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
E
exnihilo
Guest
They want a free for all based purely on emotion. God save us from such a world.
E
exnihilo
Guest
Truth is truth no matter who discovers or reveals it. Some ancient pagans were very smart. They were much smarter than many moderns including enlightened Catholics.
P
phil19034
Guest
I respectfully disagree. A priest’s first job, and most important job is evangelization. Parish priests (aka pastors) are called to evangelize EVERYONE, Catholic and non, in their parish.As someone who has been trained in such esoteric philosophy (and Aquinas) there is much to commend in Fr Reese’s views, not that I am sure anything he has said has been accurately quoted let alone understood by a good faith reading.
As I understand it he is calling for the de-Hellenisation of the excessively so training in seminaries not Catholicism.
I believe he has a point. We train all our priests as if they are being prepared to be Biblical Scholars or Systematic Theologians rather than curates in ordinary Parishes. Most parishioners couldn’t care less and most of the time need mainly sound pastoral and moral advice, counselling, inspiration and someone who relates and organises well - and someone well-versed in and familiar with the Catechism. They don’t usually need exegetical or theological Geeks.
Most young to middling priests in my 50 years adult experience are appalling counsellors with limited pastoral sense because we have underdone this equally important area of professional training. Being able to quote cannon law and Prummer’s moral theology handbook is not a substitute.
Its the same as what used to happen in secondary schools. Everybody was being educated as if they were going to University. Many do not, nor should they.
But the Church does need such Geeks … but not primarily in pastoral ministry.
Much of the geek training should be a specialisation or even a sabbatical training after ministering for some years if then needed.
In order to do so, they need a good philosophal and theological background to engage in discussions with non-believers.
Perhaps the largest problem the Church has today in the West is that priests have become more of a counselor than an evangelist. This is why so many have left the Church for evangelical Protestantism and/or simply stop coming to Church.
Perhaps parish pastors do need more formal training in counseling and spiritual direction, but seminary isn’t the only place for that. Perhaps, priests should be required to peruse further academic training in counseling and/or spiritual direction before being named appointed a pastor.
But not all priests are called to be pastors & spiritual directors. However, all priests are called to be evangelical.
God Bless
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Only two of the apostles were learned in the ways you see demanded of garden variety community based priests. Paul and John. That proportion sounds about right for me. Also note the apostles were effectively bishop Patriachs to boot. The remainder likely knew little of philosophy, let alone Greek.
You speak of “priests” as if they are all the same and fungible. They are not. So why should they all be trained the same way?
Not sure why you are into the evangelisation thing (and a US Baptist type appreciation of what that means). The role of a typical priest is rather mundane and stay at home, typically described as the OT roles of priest, prophet and king. I suggest all functions operate in a parish but due to the stability and family oriented nature their role is largely emphasising the managerial (kingly), liturgical/sacramental (priest) and spiritual counselling/challenging roles (prophet). I hardly think a priest in a middle class parish does much evangelising outside of the direct Catholic community on some corner soapbox in Hyde park if that’s what you mean. Yes there are some opps like after funerals or weddings or families of mixed religion.
Your wandering, all peoples evangelical idealism is better found in more specialised ministries better found in clerical religious Orders (eg Franciscans, Dominicans etc) in which geeks rightly abound. The good ones often speak across religious denominational boundaries.
Evangelical roles certainly requires Biblical training, but I see no great need for Greek, Latin etc philosophy and Thomism. You yourself imply this. If they cannot engage ordinary Catholics with their Geek Greek philosophy I don’t see how they will have any better luck with ordinary seculars who will be even less familiar with what they are on about.
You speak of “priests” as if they are all the same and fungible. They are not. So why should they all be trained the same way?
Not sure why you are into the evangelisation thing (and a US Baptist type appreciation of what that means). The role of a typical priest is rather mundane and stay at home, typically described as the OT roles of priest, prophet and king. I suggest all functions operate in a parish but due to the stability and family oriented nature their role is largely emphasising the managerial (kingly), liturgical/sacramental (priest) and spiritual counselling/challenging roles (prophet). I hardly think a priest in a middle class parish does much evangelising outside of the direct Catholic community on some corner soapbox in Hyde park if that’s what you mean. Yes there are some opps like after funerals or weddings or families of mixed religion.
Your wandering, all peoples evangelical idealism is better found in more specialised ministries better found in clerical religious Orders (eg Franciscans, Dominicans etc) in which geeks rightly abound. The good ones often speak across religious denominational boundaries.
Evangelical roles certainly requires Biblical training, but I see no great need for Greek, Latin etc philosophy and Thomism. You yourself imply this. If they cannot engage ordinary Catholics with their Geek Greek philosophy I don’t see how they will have any better luck with ordinary seculars who will be even less familiar with what they are on about.
Last edited:
P
phil19034
Guest
As someone who meets with a priest for spiritual direction approx every 2 weeks, it would be useless if Father couldn’t use his knowledge of philosophy & theology.Only two of the apostles were learned in the ways you see demanded of garden variety community based priests. Paul and John. That proportion sounds about right for me. Also note the apostles were effectively bishop Patriachs to boot. The remainder likely knew little of philosophy, let alone Greek.
You speak of “priests” as if they are all the same and fungible. They are not. So why should they all be trained the same way?
Not sure why you are into the evangelisation thing (and a US Baptist type appreciation of what that means). The role of a typical priest is rather mundane and stay at home, typically described as the OT roles of priest, prophet and king. I suggest all functions operate in a parish but due to the stability and family oriented nature their role is largely emphasising the managerial (kingly), liturgical/sacramental (priest) and spiritual counselling/challenging roles (prophet). I hardly think a priest in a middle class parish does much evangelising outside of the direct Catholic community on some corner soapbox in Hyde park if that’s what you mean. Yes there are some opps like after funerals or weddings or families of mixed religion.
Your wandering, all peoples evangelical idealism is better found in more specialised ministries better found in clerical religious Orders (eg Franciscans, Dominicans etc) in which geeks rightly abound. The good ones often speak across religious denominational boundaries.
Evangelical roles certainly requires Biblical training, but I see no great need for Greek, Latin etc philosophy and Thomism. You yourself imply this. If they cannot engage ordinary Catholics with their Geek Greek philosophy I don’t see how they will have any better luck with ordinary seculars who will be even less familiar with what they are on about.
When I have an issue with something that is pastoral, I don’t discuss it with my spiritual director, I take it to my pastor. And when I have an issue that requires pure counseling, I take it to my confessor and/or my licensed Catholic Therapist.
The “prophet” part of King, Priest & Prophet doesn’t mean to be pastoral and a counselor. It means to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ - which is true Evangelization.
God Bless
B
BlackFriar
Guest
By all means make words mean whatever predilections suit you…but then converse is only likely with people like you.
Good for you re the spiritual direction if you are a “geek” and have found a geek priest. Why must it be ones PP…I am sure you could have found one at the Doms if your PP was not into geek speak.
In fact many parish based priests dont really understand their Thomism deeply at all, though enough to convince most laity with their historical knowledge of the debates and their simple semimemorised understandings of the basic concepts and boilerplate aphorisms.
Good for you re the spiritual direction if you are a “geek” and have found a geek priest. Why must it be ones PP…I am sure you could have found one at the Doms if your PP was not into geek speak.
In fact many parish based priests dont really understand their Thomism deeply at all, though enough to convince most laity with their historical knowledge of the debates and their simple semimemorised understandings of the basic concepts and boilerplate aphorisms.
Last edited:
P
phil19034
Guest
I’m sorry, but this is not very charitable of you.Good for you re the spiritual direction if you are a “geek” and have found a geek priest. Why must it be ones PP…I am sure you could have found one at the Doms if your PP was not into geek speak.
I use the spiritual director that my pastor suggested for me.
And no, we do not sit there and talk about Philosophy all session. We review the scriptures I read and he digs into them.
That’s what spiritual direction is… working to understand what God is telling us individually.
God Bless
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Well if you were offended you misunderstood something.
Geek, especially when scare quoted, is not meant pejoratively.
Geek, especially when scare quoted, is not meant pejoratively.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.