Fr.Z: "We must deny to Protestantism any right to use the Bible..."

[Gorgias]

I could make a case for the orthodoxy of Lutheran doctrine

Haven’t you just moved the goal-posts, though? The question wasn’t “Lutheran doctrine”, but rather, “many of Luther’s ideas.”

and that Catholics are at liberty to change their doctrine and practice.

Unilaterally?

I dunno… you could “make a case”, but I’m skeptical it would hold up to scrutiny…

 

[Hodos]

Haven’t you just moved the goal-posts, though? The question wasn’t “Lutheran doctrine”, but rather, “many of Luther’s ideas.”

No, I haven’t moved the goal posts. The discussion was about doctrine, was it not? I am not beholden to all of Luther’s writings just as you are not beholden to whatever any specific Catholic theologian has said. Should I hold you accountable for the weird stuff Origen made up?

 

[Gorgias]

No, I haven’t moved the goal posts. The discussion was about doctrine, was it not?

Well, the particular issue to which you responded was “many of Luther’s ideas departed from the deposit of faith.” I think that the response to that claim is “yes, they did.” Do you disagree?

I am not beholden to all of Luther’s writings just as you are not beholden to whatever any specific Catholic theologian has said. Should I hold you accountable for the weird stuff Origen made up?

Apples and oranges, don’t you think?

After all, if Origen was the originator of the Catholic Church, and defined its doctrine, then yes, Catholics would be beholden to his doctrinal musings! But… he’s not. On the other hand… Luther is the founder of his denomination.

So, it’s an entirely different question to ask, since it boils down to “did the founder / theologian / magisterium of this denomination diverge from the deposit of faith in the course of the establishment of his denomination?”

 

[Hodos]

Well, the particular issue to which you responded was “many of Luther’s ideas departed from the deposit of faith.” I think that the response to that claim is “yes, they did.” Do you disagree?

Well, which specific ideas are you referring to? You are making a positive assertion, and refusing to prove your assertion. It is not my responsibility to prove your point. What I do know is that the doctrinal issues to which he spoke about and to which we confess are orthodox.

Apples and oranges, don’t you think?

No, since you are trying to hold me to a standard that you refuse to maintain yourself, it isn’t. You will hold me accountable for personal writings which Luther did not require us to accept on a doctrinal level, yet refuse to hold yourself accountable for the heretical teachings of your own early fathers. Last point, as stated before Luther was not an innovator from the Christian faith. He brought attention to those areas where the Christian faith had departed from scripture, and urged a reform to return to basic Christian doctrine. As such, he is not the “founder” of the Christian faith. Christ was.