Fr. Zuhlsdorf answers the question, "Why Gregorian chant is better than 'Gather Us In' "

[DaveBj]

I have not read either the link in the OP, or the rest of the thread. However, I feel fully qualified to comment on the mere question posed by said priest being featured.

snip

From another trained musician,

Our music leader, I believe, feels that he has to keep everybody happy, so we rotate through the Haugen/Haas hootenany every now and then. I just stand there and try to keep a pained expression off my face.

DaveBj

 

[Canto]

No it doesn’t. Gregorian Chant was codified in the 10-13th centuries and was named after Pope St. Gregory the Great as a marketing ploy. It likely arose from a Carolingian synthesis of Roman and Gallican chant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant#History

The Mass of Vatican II | Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J. | IgnatiusInsight.com

…Now, just a little footnote on the Gregorian Chant. In reflecting on these things about Church music, I began to think about the Psalms a few years back. And a very obvious idea suddenly struck me. Why it didn’t come earlier I don’t know, but the fact is that the Psalms are songs. Every one of the 150 Psalms is meant to be sung; and was sung by the Jews. When this thought came to me, I immediately called a friend, a rabbi in San Francisco who runs the Hebrew School, and I asked, “Do you sing the Psalms at your synagogue?” “Well, no, we recite them,” he said. “Do you know what they sounded like when they were sung in the Old Testament times and the time of Jesus and the Apostles?” I asked. He said, “No, but why don’t you call this company in Upstate New York. They publish Hebrew music, and they may know.”

So, I called the company and they said, “We don’t know; call 1-800-JUDAISM.” So I did. And I got an information center for Jewish traditions, and they didn’t know either. But they said, “You call this music teacher in Manhattan. He will know.” So, I called this wonderful rabbi in Manhattan and we had a long conversation. At the end, I said, “I want to bring some focus to this, can you give me any idea what it sounded like when Jesus and his Apostles sang the Psalms?” He said, “Of course, Father. It sounded like Gregorian Chant. You got it from us.”

I was amazed. I called Professor William Mart, a Professor of Music at Stanford University and a friend. I said, “Bill, is this true?” He said, “Yes. The Psalm tones have their roots in ancient Jewish hymnody and psalmody.” So, you know something? If you sing the Psalms at Mass with the Gregorian tones, you are as close as you can get to praying with Jesus and Mary. They sang the Psalms in tones that have come down to us today in Gregorian Chant.

So, the Council isn’t calling us back to some medieval practice, those “horrible” medieval times, the “terrible” Middle Ages, when they knew so little about liturgy that all they could do was build a Chartres Cathedral. (When I see cathedrals and churches built that have a tenth of the beauty of Notre Dame de Paris, then I will say that the liturgists have the right to speak. Until then, they have no right to speak about beauty in the liturgy.) But my point is that at the time of Notre Dame de Paris in the 13th century, the Psalms tones were already over a thousand years old. They are called Gregorian after Pope Gregory I, who reigned from 590 to 604. But they were already a thousand years old when he reigned. He didn’t invent Gregorian chant; he reorganized and codified it and helped to establish musical schools to sing it and teach it. It was a reform; it wasn’t an invention. Thus, the Council really calls us back to an unbroken tradition of truly sacred music and gives such music pride of place…

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp

 

[StTommyMore]

From another trained musician,

Our music leader, I believe, feels that he has to keep everybody happy, so we rotate through the Haugen/Haas hootenany every now and then. I just stand there and try to keep a pained expression off my face.

DaveBj

My home parish does not use chant, but at least the hymns are traditional—most of the time. Once in a great while “Lord of the Dance” or “Sing a New Church” rears its ugly head.

 

[Canto]

Do you honestly think that the lyrics to great modern hymns like How Great Thou Art are boring? Or traditional hymns like Crown Him With Many Crowns?

I’m talking post 1960

As for not rhyming–isn’t that one of the characteristics of most chant? So if people don’t sing hymns because they don’t rhyme, then it follows that they certainly won’t sing chant because it doesn’t rhyme either.

Generally the propers for Mass directly quote the Bible. If it’s Jesus speaking it’ll add "says the Lord’ to the text. Do modern songs do this? In terms of the hymns of the Breviary (Divine Office), do correct, but they rhyme.

Adóro te devóte, látens Déitas,
Quæ sub his figúris vere látitas,
Tíbi se cor méum tótum súbjicit,
Quia Te contémplans tótum déficit.

Tantum ergo Sacramentum
veneremur cernui:
et antiquum documentum
novo cedat ritui:
praestet fides supplementum
sensuum defectui.

As for the songs not adequately catechising people–well, if people don’t understand the poetry in a hymn, then yes, they will come away confused. (I personally think that some people deliberately choose to be obtuse when it comes to the poetry in songs like Gather Us In, but I am probably being uncharitable . After all, there is a lot of poetry that I don’t understand.)

Hence even boys and girls, learning these sacred hymns at a tender age, are greatly helped by them to know, appreciate and memorize the truths of the faith. Therefore they also serve as a sort of catechism. (Musica Sacra. Pope Pius XX, 1955).

Christian hymns in which the truths of the faith, the life of Christ the Lord and the praises of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints can be sung (Musica Sacra. Pope Pius XX, 1955).

How many ‘popular’ new Marian songs, speak of her as Immaculate or Mother of God etc. One of the main songbooks used in Australian churches, never.

Hail Mary Gentle Woman calls her morning star. Is not Christ the Morning Star and Mary the (Ave) Maris Stella. Ocean Star or Star of the Sea?

Singing for the Supper or the Sacrifice?
by Lucy E. Carroll
canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art2j1.htm

One often-overlooked issue in the erosion of belief in the Real Presence is the text of Communion hymns. As we sing, so we believe… Protestant hymns… some are even more appropriate textually than modern-day hymns in “Catholic” liturgy booklets.

I assume we will follow along with the English (or whatever language) translation. Of course, we have to assume that that translation is done correctly. That is one of the dangers of being catechized in a foreign language.

Why are Papal Encyclicals, Conciliar Documents etc in Latin…

So how will Latin chant make catechesis more likely? Most of us do not know Latin.

The melodies themselves
The Latin/English Missals esp if one is an avid Bible reader with all those scriptural propers.

O sacrificial banquet!
in which Christ is received,
the memory of his passion is renewed,
the mind is filled with grace,
and a pledge of future glory
is given to us.
“O Sacrum Convivium”

Missionaries …Gregorian melodies. It did this so that the people who were to be converted might be more easily led to accept the truths of the Christian religion by the attractiveness of these melodies. (Musica Sacra. Pope Pius XX, 1955).

But of course we should be able to trust our Church to make sure that the translations are correct, right?

Oh, wait–many don’t seem to be able to trust the Church now. After all, the Church allows songs like Gather Us In in the Mass.

Does she? the General Instruction of the Roman Missal says that when the propers are replaced the song must be approved by the local Bishop or Conference.

I honestly think that all of us need to lose the attitude here and do what our Church tells us to do in all things, not just the things we like. .

And she tells us to give GChant first place, not last place or no place at all. For how many decades has she exhorted this.

I think that those people who want Gregorian chant restored to a prominent place in the Mass should come up with a plan to train more teachers and come up with another plan to make sure that these teachers are distributed throughout the U.S. into all the dioceses and are adequately funded to be able to bring their knowledge to parishes and help believers to learn and love Gregorian chant.

So IMO, this thread should change from being a rant against Gather Us In and become a thread discussing strategies for making Gregorian chant the pre-eminent music form in all Masses in the U.S.

But why not put your cleverness and wit to good use and come up with some realistic ways to obey Holy Mother Church and restore Gregorian chant?

The Church/Popes/Vat II have already exhorted Priests and Bishops.
Documents have been released with plans.
Pope Paul VI had Jubilate Deo for free.

At a parish I know, the music group learn songs but listening to a CD to know ‘how it goes’ and then strum the chords and sing. Why not listen to a CD of chant or make use of all all the free audio, video, pdf, pronounciation, translation etc stuff on the internet and sing a simple chant instead of say a syncopated song with quarter note rests etc thrown in for good measure.

Many people such as the CMAA and Corpus Christ Watershed are doing great work

Gather us in… not in some heaven…
I for one (in years to come) would love to be gathered by God into that heaven, even if it is supposidlly light years away.

 

[ProVobis]

Pope Paul VI had Jubilate Deo for free.

Yep, that means no copyright infringements or royalty fees for Catholic parishes.

 

[JHow]

Yep, that means no copyright infringements or royalty fees for Catholic parishes.

This is a question that is starting to gnaw at me: the relationship between those deciding what music gets used and the licensing aspect of it? Also, how effective a use of parish funds is it to support licensed materials every year? It reminds me a little bit of the textbook business, which, if you know anything about it, is largely a scam (Arithmetic as a subject has not changed for years, for example. It is almost impossible to say anything new about long-division).

 

[FAB]

This was tried before. It was called the Reformation.
I understand we don’t really know what the earliest masses were like, so what we have is a modern fabrication, a pick-and-mix, which is slowly being revised. Again.
Your proposition implies that 1600 years of development were somehow wrong.

1600 years had given us a mass 110 years ago, which is really were the changes began, were what the choir sang had little to do with what the priest was doing, prayers mumble by the priest which were not listened to except by the servers, who had the ring bells so the faithfull would know something important was going on. Communion was only given to the faith full once a year otherwise is was ocular communion through adoration.
I wouldn’t say wrong, but distance and unessary.

‘Unnecessary layering’: you mean like Chant, feasts on the proper days, exquisite prayers, beautiful vestments

,
these we still have. By the way, as one who wears vestments, I am thankfull for being able to use ones that are liter and cooler.

unvested laity staying the pews where they belong

since I believe that he laity have proper roles the playn in the liturgy, they are now were they belong

 

[FAB]

The congregation can join in the Chant at the Masses I go to. I don’t think that’s ever been prohibited.

Your posts made me thing of something:

‘I want music I like’ + ‘I want music I can understand’ + ‘I want music we can easily sing’ + ‘Everybody join in’ = boring, droning, cheesy hymns. Every Sunday. For the rest of your life.

Actually, if the chant were to be used every Sunday it would become boring. It’s why I believe the place of honor it needs to be reserved for are the seasons of advent and lent and high occations.

The reason why so many hymns seems boring is that they have been overused. Instead of music directors using 90% of the music in a hymnal, they use about 10%. There are many beautiful hymns, they are just not used.

 

[whipp711]

Even as a convert from the Presbyterian church to the Catholic faith, I have trouble with contemporary music verses chant. Yes, us Presbyterians could out sing the Catholics in my earlier years. However, that music was more reverent than the bongo, banjo, flutes, horns, and a barely audible choir that I experience now. A third of the congregation applaud at the end of Mass. ~shudder~ The Band (aka choir) is behind the alter in a bandshell type setup toboot. The central focuse of one’s being should be the liturgy, not the performance. I’m obviously letting this distract me. My fault. But still.

 

[InquisitorMax]

Actually, if the chant were to be used every Sunday it would become boring. It’s why I believe the place of honor it needs to be reserved for are the seasons of advent and lent and high occations.

And this is why, if your attitude is common, most Catholics will, in practice, never hear it.

Your earlier critique mentioning ‘mumbling priests’ and ‘lighter vestments’ don’t bear commenting about. These are no excuse for the ‘school recital’ style of Mass we see today.

It’ll be good when Catholics collectively realise what a Mass is and, no, more catecheis won’t do it. The teaching just isn’t there any more. It’ll have to be demonstrated to us, via
more old-style Masses and some hard preaching.

The reason why so many hymns seems boring is that they have been overused. Instead of music directors using 90% of the music in a hymnal, they use about 10%. There are many beautiful hymns, they are just not used.

That I agree with. The less you do, the less you want to do. Sloth leads to more sloth. Then Chant and the Latin Mass seem like a mountain to climb, whereas Everest or K2 are mountains to climb.

Chant is simple music and the old rite is easier to learn than a school play.

 

[FAB]

These are no excuse for the ‘school recital’ style of Mass we see today.
QUOTE]

I would strongly disagree with any idea the mass is 'school recital" style. The mass done properly is very beautiful. It is though often difficut the keep a high standard of worship consistanly. The masses in our cathedral are spendid with the planning and attention to detail evidident. That is perhaps the key, every mass needs those attention to detail by all involed, human nature though as you stated often takes an easier route.

 

[countertenor]

Actually, if the chant were to be used every Sunday it would become boring. It’s why I believe the place of honor it needs to be reserved for are the seasons of advent and lent and high occations.

The reason why so many hymns seems boring is that they have been overused. Instead of music directors using 90% of the music in a hymnal, they use about 10%. There are many beautiful hymns, they are just not used.

Actually if the congregations were taught the various chant ordinaries for the various seasons, they would be rotated enough not to become boring. If Latin is an issue, come Advent, the new English translation fits a great many of the gregorian ordinaries and have already been released for free so that people can begin learning them. The problem is facilitation, because too many Catholic “musicians” are not actually musicians, and can’t teach themselves let alone anyone else.

If the propers were used ever week, they wouldn’t get boring because they’d be different, just like the hymns should be each week. These are also available in English for free.

Take the offertory for example. At my Latin rite parish, while the ushers take the collection a short hymn that in some way relates is sung, when the gifts are being brought forward, we switch to the Offertory proper which is sung as they are brought forward and placed on the altar. This is also done at communion. It is possible to have the propers and hymns, and in many parishes it works well because the propers themselves would not be long enough to take up all the time necessary to fulfill the liturgical action.

People need to remember that music is part of the mass not a part from the mass, and that the Church gives us this music. The mass was/is meant to be sung. The spoken mass is a later development. The singing of the mass is really something we need to get back to, but this takes education, and until parishes are will to allocate the resources to get competent liturgist/musicians to offer educational opportunities to the faithful, they can’t learn, and we can’t return to the tradition. People shouldn’t be fighting about what they like or don’t like or can or can’t understand, because we can all learn to understand these things, but many of us don’t know how to learn, and often there is no one to teach us. Of course there is also the problem that many people are too lazy to learn or care about anything that doesn’t entertain them. But what else can be expected when many people in power within parishes treat the people in the pews like they are 5 year olds with ADHD who have to be entertained and made to feel something emotional rather than spiritual.

People have to care about the liturgy and the tradition of the Church as it has been passed down throughout history more than themselves. The liturgy is a communal action where we come together to worship God, along with the Angels. Liturgy starts in Heaven and should reflect the heavenly liturgy, not our own preferences based on current trends.

 

[InquisitorMax]

"InquisitorMax:

These are no excuse for the ‘school recital’ style of Mass we see today.

I would strongly disagree with any idea the mass is 'school recital" style. The mass done properly is very beautiful. It is though often difficut the keep a high standard of worship consistanly. The masses in our cathedral are spendid with the planning and attention to detail evidident. That is perhaps the key, every mass needs those attention to detail by all involed, human nature though as you stated often takes an easier route.

My underlining. That’s probably why your masses are splendid.

Even in such a place, there’s a perturbing tendency to ‘get busy’ with the Mass.

My opinion is that even regular attenders don’t grasp the enormity of what’s occuring. It’s ritual, in the bad sense of that word. Jesus, to them, is like Santa Claus; a nice chap who is nebulous. So local additions are fine. How nice that Sr. So-and-so is an EMHC. With and sash and all. In the sanctuary. All very friendly and inclusive. Just not much like what we think a sacred ritual should look like.

Masses face front, with people in lay clothes up there, giving readings, even little jokes from the priest and queue up for CITH and it looks a lot like a school awards ceremony. Not a rite which might be dangerous to meddle with.

What was forbidden is now open to anyone. Heck, you even get non-Catholics coming up; they think it’s like a buffet; everyone is entitled to something e.g. blessings at the Communion rail.

Chant helps take people out of the mundane and into the idea that something special is happening.

 

[Cat]

Chant helps take people out of the mundane and into the idea that something special is happening.

Not for everyone. This is just your personal opinion and reaction to chant, but this is not a universal reaction.

I’ll repeat it. I dislike chant. Chant does not “take me out of the mundane and into the idea that something special is happening.” Chant grates on my nerves and makes me want to stand up and say, “If you get near a melody, sing it.” I can take about a minute of chant, and then I want to turn it off and hear something else a little more melodic and rhythmic. It does not help me to concentrate on the Lord Jesus; on the contrary, it is so unpleasant for me to hear that I can’t concentrate on the Lord Jesus at all.

I personally think that if all Masses become predominantly chant-dominated, that Mass will become something to endure. Maybe that’s good, since Mass is not supposed to be entertaining, but it’s supposed to be the re-presentation of the Suffering and Sacrifice of our Lord, and chant will help us to think about that more.

I appreciate the historical significance of chant and other forms of ancient music. I appreciate that others like it and I hope for their sakes that more parishes add a little chant to the Mass. But we need to constantly remind ourselves that Mass is not about what we personally like, but what the Church says is appropriate and correct. At this time, many of the songs that some of the posters in this thread are disparaging are still allowed, thank God.

 

[JRRTFAN]

That is the opinion of one Priest, one who obviously does not like, or appreciate, contemporary music.

Hate to inform you, but at one time, Gregorian Chant was also new, and perceived to be “different” and “unsuitable”.

Just because it is old, does not make it more liturgical, or more suitable.

The participation of the people is a LOT more important than whether or not a piece of music has a long history with the church.

Do we go back to those days, when, “The difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics don’t sing”?

I pray every day that the “traditionalists” never get sway over the Church again. If they do, they will drive out a very large proportion of the Roman Catholic faithful.

Medic, if the verancular of the street, Gather Us In would gag a buzzard off a gut wagon. It’s NOT ABOUT US! for gosh sakes! It’s NOT. It’s about the praise and worship of the Supreme Being, NOT US! Let’s Gather Us In and burn the Gather hymnal while we sing All Creatures of Our God and King or Holy God We Praise Thy Name. What say?

 

[jilly4ski]

Not for everyone. This is just your personal opinion and reaction to chant, but this is not a universal reaction.

I’ll repeat it. I dislike chant. Chant does not “take me out of the mundane and into the idea that something special is happening.” Chant grates on my nerves and makes me want to stand up and say, “If you get near a melody, sing it.” I can take about a minute of chant, and then I want to turn it off and hear something else a little more melodic and rhythmic. It does not help me to concentrate on the Lord Jesus; on the contrary, it is so unpleasant for me to hear that I can’t concentrate on the Lord Jesus at all.

I personally think that if all Masses become predominantly chant-dominated, that Mass will become something to endure. Maybe that’s good, since Mass is not supposed to be entertaining, but it’s supposed to be the re-presentation of the Suffering and Sacrifice of our Lord, and chant will help us to think about that more.

I appreciate the historical significance of chant and other forms of ancient music. I appreciate that others like it and I hope for their sakes that more parishes add a little chant to the Mass. But we need to constantly remind ourselves that Mass is not about what we personally like, but what the Church says is appropriate and correct. At this time, many of the songs that some of the posters in this thread are disparaging are still allowed, thank God.

Cat, yours is a position I have never seen before, especially from a musician. Have you ever tried to find the melody while listening to it and looking at the notes? This is the first piece of (Latin) chant I learned to sing. youtube.com/watch?v=CAmydVsNMqM It is the prayer Hail Holy Queen.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually if the congregations were taught the various chant ordinaries for the various seasons, they would be rotated enough not to become boring. If Latin is an issue, come Advent, the new English translation fits a great many of the gregorian ordinaries and have already been released for free so that people can begin learning them. The problem is facilitation, because too many Catholic “musicians” are not actually musicians, and can’t teach themselves let alone anyone else.

If the propers were used ever week, they wouldn’t get boring because they’d be different, just like the hymns should be each week. These are also available in English for free.

It is my understanding that any music (notes, lyrics, translations) written by the choirmaster, organist, pianist, etc is copyrightable. Even introductions and incidental soft music that is improvised during the liturgy. Permission from the composer/writer is needed prior to its use in the church. The bishop or pastor should be consulted if there are any doubts to the freedom of playing any music.

 

[Eugenius]

For those who have stated that they don’t like Gregorian Chant, I’m wondering where you have heard it. Have you actually experienced chant (Latin or English) during mass or are you basing your opinion on a recording, such as the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo? I sing in a choir that mixes Gregorian Chant and hymns, but even I get bored listening to long CDs of chant out of context of a mass.

 

[countertenor]

It is my understanding that any music (notes, lyrics, translations) written by the choirmaster, organist, pianist, etc is copyrightable. Even introductions and incidental soft music that is improvised during the liturgy. Permission from the composer/writer is needed prior to its use in the church. The bishop or pastor should be consulted if there are any doubts to the freedom of playing any music.

The music I’m talking about the copyright owners have already given the permission. Copyrights can be complicated, but the stuff I’m talking about isn’t. As someone who is a professional musician and has managed concert series and produced studio and live recordings, I know about all of this. BTW most pastors and bishops have no clue about the actual laws in effect.

Much of the music even currently in use in many parishes is out of copyright, and it’s the edition (meaning the way they put it in the book or the book itself) that is actually copyrighted and not the music itself.

 

[Cat]

Cat, yours is a position I have never seen before, especially from a musician. Have you ever tried to find the melody while listening to it and looking at the notes? This is the first piece of (Latin) chant I learned to sing. youtube.com/watch?v=CAmydVsNMqM It is the prayer Hail Holy Queen.

Thank you for trying. It’s not as objectionable as some chant because it has more major intervals rather than the gloomy minor stuff. It sounds a lot like “Oh, Danny Boy.” It sounds a little more robust and less effeminate than so much of chant.

I still shake my head over it and wonder how anyone could take a steady diet of this kind of “wandering” music with no regular melody or rhythm. I would think it would make life more irregular. How can one march through life with such songs?

Also we have the issue of the foreign language, which I do not like and never have, including back when I was Protetant and the missionaries came to our churches and taught us songs in the language of their particular field. The chant sounds like gobblety-gook to me. I know this prayer and pray it often, but I didn’t hear the prayer in my mind when I listened to this piece. I heard nonsense syllables. I just don’t get the fascination that people have with foreign languages. Why not sing and speak in our own dear heart language? I think it’s weird that people want to talk and listen in a foreign language. I don’t get it.

If anyone is interested in hearing the style and type of music that makes me feel closer to Christ and concentrate on Him, here is an example: youtube.com/watch?v=lL7nR-BWzO4

The song is “How Beautiful” by Twila Paris. This song is more “Catholic” than Protestant–no problems with theology. I love this song, and I would love to hear more Mass music like this.

Are all of you honestly saying that you don’t like this music? If so, that’s OK. We’re all different. But I love it. It makes me cry.

If I had the choice of Mass with this style of music vs. Mass with Latin chant, I would attend the contemporary Mass. And what’s more important, I think that many Catholics would say the same thing. Those Catholics like me aren’t posting on this board–they aren’t posting at all because many of them don’t do social media of any kind. But they’re there in large numbers, and they are good, loyal, Catholics who are not “liberal” or “cafeteria.” They just prefer more modern music rather than ancient music.

It’s important to take into account the preferences of ALL Catholics. The Church, in Her wisdom, has clearly stated that although Gregorian chant has “pride of place,” it is not the ONLY music that can be done in Mass. The Gather hymnal has not been banned yet. If any of the songs have been banned, it has not been declared to the entire Catholic membership yet. In other words, all these songs are still available for use in Masses.

As many have said over and over on this board–the Mass is not about what we like, it’s about what the Church approves for the liturgy. That works BOTH ways. If there is Gregorian chant in a Mass, it is my duty as a Catholic to not call attention to myself by making faces, looking down, frowning, grimacing, refusing to try to sing it, or in any way detracting from the Mass liturgy. And back at you–when I read about those of you who stand stone-faced and refuse to even touch the Gather Hymnal, I can’t help but wonder if it’s YOU who are at the Mass to be entertained by the music that YOU like.