Fr. Zuhlsdorf poll of seminarians. By a 6:1 ratio, seminarians want to be ordained in the old rite vs the new rite

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wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/msgr-bux-tells-it-as-he-sees-it-wdtprs-poll-for-seminarians-only/

Granted the sample size is small but I think it reflects what I’ve heard and read from several different sources. Younger priests and seminarians are much more open to Church traditions than the age 50 and over crowd (priests and laymen).

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has stated many times on his blog that based on his knowledge, he would guess more than 50% (actually he’s stated much more than 50%) of seminarians are interested in being trained to celebrate the TLM and intend on celebrating it when ordained.

I’ve seen it stated repeatedly that only a small minority of the Catholic laity are interested in assisting at the TLM. Of course this is irrelevent. My response would be, how many laymen were demanding the NO Mass in 1968?

I suspect that over time more and more TLM’s will be offered as younger priests get into positions of power in the Church. At that point, Catholics will have more options to assist at the TLM and fewer options to assist at the NO Mass.
 
marthaferretti said:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/msgr-bux-tells-it-as-he-sees-it-wdtprs-poll-for-seminarians-only/

Granted the sample size is small but I think it reflects what I’ve heard and read from several different sources. Younger priests and seminarians are much more open to Church traditions than the age 50 and over crowd (priests and laymen).
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Universae Ecclesiae explicitly forbids the usus antiquior for the ordination to presbiterate for the diocesan seminaries.
  1. Only in Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life which are under the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, and in those which use the liturgical books of the forma extraordinaria, is the use of the Pontificale Romanum of 1962 for the conferral of minor and major orders permitted.
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31 – Dumtaxat Institutis Vitae Consecratae et Societatibus Vitae Apostolicae Pontificiae Commissioni Ecclesia Dei subditis, et his ubi servatur usus librorum liturgicorum formae extraordinariae, licet Pontificali Romano anni 1962 uti ad Ordines maiores et minores conferendos.
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The probably reason is to avoid boasting related to the form of the ordination

1 Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I give God thanks, that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Caius; Lest any should say that you were baptized in my name.
 
One of our priests was ordained a year ago. He’s older, probably 40 or so.

We’re a mis mas I suppose of both forms.

He brought back altar servers (girls and boys). They serve in combination with our adult Eucharistic ministers.

He sings the Liturgy of the Eucharist, it’s beautiful.
 
marthaferretti said:
Granted the sample size is small but I think it reflects what I’ve heard and read from several different sources.
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Also keep in mind, the poll sample is not representative of all seminarians. Only persons who read Fr. Z’s blog will be participating in the poll. It seems reasonable to assume that readers of Fr. Z will be traditionally inclined, and so will be the readers who are seminarians.

Online polls are fun, but they really don’t mean much.
 
marthaferretti said:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/msgr-bux-tells-it-as-he-sees-it-wdtprs-poll-for-seminarians-only/

Granted the sample size is small but I think it reflects what I’ve heard and read from several different sources. Younger priests and seminarians are much more open to Church traditions than the age 50 and over crowd (priests and laymen).

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has stated many times on his blog that based on his knowledge, he would guess more than 50% (actually he’s stated much more than 50%) of seminarians are interested in being trained to celebrate the TLM and intend on celebrating it when ordained.

I’ve seen it stated repeatedly that only a small minority of the Catholic laity are interested in assisting at the TLM. Of course this is irrelevent. My response would be, how many laymen were demanding the NO Mass in 1968?

I suspect that over time more and more TLM’s will be offered as younger priests get into positions of power in the Church. At that point, Catholics will have more options to assist at the TLM and fewer options to assist at the NO Mass.
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He is basing the results of his “poll” on seminarians who have e-mailed him with their choice. I wonder how many seminarians don’t even know who Fr. Z therefore unable or uninterested in responding to his “poll.” I would like to see a real scientific survey on this issue.
 
laszlo said:
Universae Ecclesiae explicitly forbids the usus antiquior for the ordination to presbiterate for the diocesan seminaries.
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Why is this? I’ve heard reason after reason for the VII liturgical changes, but I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for changing the rites of ordination. Additionally, I see no reason for forbidding the old rite and have heard no reason for this. Especially since this restriction is only for diocesan seminaries (I assume you mean priests, most ordinations are not in the seminary).
 
I would love to see USCCB poll seminarians about this…
 
BertBlyleven said:
Why is this? I’ve heard reason after reason for the VII liturgical changes, but I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for changing the rites of ordination. Additionally, I see no reason for forbidding the old rite and have heard no reason for this. Especially since this restriction is only for diocesan seminaries (I assume you mean priests, most ordinations are not in the seminary).
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For Catholics the Church is the Law, whatever She decides is legitim. The decision of the Church makes things legitim, and nothing else.

The essence of the protestantism is, that the people are the Church, and they know it better than the Church.

A week ago I was on a transitory deacon’s ordination. It was beautiful. The chants Latin the rest English. Perfect unity of the sacred and our own. There were about 200 people present (weekday night), but it was tangible, who people felt the rite. This never happened with the old Latin rite, that was made as distant.
 
Joannm said:
He is basing the results of his “poll” on seminarians who have e-mailed him with their choice. I wonder how many seminarians don’t even know who Fr. Z therefore unable or uninterested in responding to his “poll.” I would like to see a real scientific survey on this issue.
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I think it’s still bound to be the same sort of result in the US if it’s true what’s often said about the seminaries training students for the EF being full to bursting while the others only have a handful of seminarians.
 
marthaferretti said:
I suspect that over time more and more TLM’s will be offered as younger priests get into positions of power in the Church.
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That’s an odd term to use for a Church which is there to serve rather than be served, and to not lord it over the faithful.
 
@stylites

So an abbot doesn’t lead the monks at a monestery, a mother superior doesn’t lead the nuns in a convent, a priest doesn’t lead his flock, a bishop doesn’t lead a diocese and the pope doesn’t lead the Church?

Your quibbling about the use of the word ‘power’ doesn’t square with how the Church functions in the world.
 
marthaferretti said:
@stylites

So an abbot doesn’t lead the monks at a monestery, a mother superior doesn’t lead the nuns in a convent, a priest doesn’t lead his flock, a bishop doesn’t lead a diocese and the pope doesn’t lead the Church?

Your quibbling about the use of the word ‘power’ doesn’t square with how the Church functions in the world.
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No doubt ‘authority’ would be a better word. People can be hungry for power, but never authority.
 
Dale_M said:
Also keep in mind, the poll sample is not representative of all seminarians. Only persons who read Fr. Z’s blog will be participating in the poll. It seems reasonable to assume that readers of Fr. Z will be traditionally inclined, and so will be the readers who are seminarians.

Online polls are fun, but they really don’t mean much.
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Exactly. This ratio of 6:1 is completely meaningless against all seminarians, or even a representative sample of seminarians. I wouldn’t draw any inferences from this at all.
 
While true that all of a target group should be polled to get as accurate an indication as possible, in that light, no poll should mean anything at all. What poll has ever had “every” member of a target group respond ? But we still find polls interesting.

Some people, especially those who have no interest in the EF, seem to have for whatever reason, an urge to imply there is little interest in the EF. But it’s only speculation at best.

Why ?
  • many Catholics don’t know of the SP yet
  • the EF has only been freed of indult less than 4 years
  • some bishops have no qualms revealing their negative opinions regarding the UP and UE
  • it takes time for priests new to the EF to learn it and pray it properly
  • it takes time to train servers, etc
Again, while polls may not be definitive, on this poll of CA members at the link below indicated that of those who took time to reply, near 75% have an interest in attending the EF. From day one. And the poll ran nearly 6 weeks. Evidently, here is a lot of interest in the EF here among CA menbers.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=454571
 
@ At Trent

You are exactly correct. The claim that few Catholics want to assist at the TLM is completely bogus because it has only been made available in most dioceses at very few parshes. Typically at inconvenient times and out-of-the way places.
 
You don’t have to ask every member of a group for a poll to be accurate, but you do have to get a statistically representative sample.
 
laszlo said:
For Catholics the Church is the Law, whatever She decides is legitim. The decision of the Church makes things legitim, and nothing else.

The essence of the protestantism is, that the people are the Church, and they know it better than the Church.

A week ago I was on a transitory deacon’s ordination. It was beautiful. The chants Latin the rest English. Perfect unity of the sacred and our own. There were about 200 people present (weekday night), but it was tangible, who people felt the rite. This never happened with the old Latin rite, that was made as distant.
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Are you sure it never happened? What if people didn’t “feel” the right? Is the deacon any less a deacon?

Yes, what the Church says goes, I know well and believe this. But this is not what I have problems with. I’m sorry for coming off as protestant, but seeking a legitimate answer to DRASTIC changes in ordination is absolutely reasonable. And the Church failing to provide even the slightest answer other than the “absolute truth” you just stated is, well, unreasonable. Pius XII was very explicit in why the old rite was the way it was; no such reason why it was changed has been given. Motivations for changes are much more important than the changes themselves.
 
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