Francis MacNutt

[mr_bamber]

My heavens, you are reaching way into outer space to find something concrete to pin on MacNutt! Really far out!

I did not see a single word that identified the adherents as T.B.'s. Not one. Just an isolated witness from one person who claimed a blessing of laughter. This can occur at ANY public charismatic meeting, and does not in any way depict that the leaders taught it or were connected with it.

And the article in your first link is ridiculous, for MacNutt only explained the phenomena in a single sentence, as he understood it, and was not specifically hosting a conference in which he taught it. Geesh, you really take the cake on this, Mr. B, for a lame explanation. No links are showing his absolute affiliation, nor teaching, nor putting souls in danger, nor unorthodoxy, nor anything else you want to come up with. I am open to listen, but I won’t dialogue with you over silly nonsense like this that hasn’t a shred of danger such as you would have our readers believe.

I’m finished. You are just blowing bubbles.

Sirach 2 you made yourself look very silly with your hot air and are now trying to back track and that 's why you claim you wont dialogue anymore. There are even many other links that clearly show Macnutt attendance and endorsement at Toronto Blessing meetings and other Protestant meetings, but it seems you have made up your mind already to believe what you want to believe about Macnutt.

You now trying to twist what I wrote to get yourself out of a pickle. It is clear the links that Macnutt endorses the Toronto Blessing, this is the TACF magazine (TACF is the home of the Toronto Blessing!). The TACF magazine article shows that Macnutt ministered alongside Carol and John Arnott at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship who are chief proponents of the Toronto Blessing, as well as other TB speakers. Those in the Toronto Blessing movement have openly said that God is using them to set up a church that will supersede all other churches to bring interdenominational governance and authority in their supposed prophetic messages. Therefore since Macnutt has endorsed such a movement whether implicitly or explicitly he is endangering souls. And you still have haven’t responded to why Macnutt hasn’t showed his allegiance to the Catholic faith on his doctrinal statement on his website, rather then his current false ecumenical hogwash.

The first link you dismissed so easily because you are trying to commit ad-hominem rather then engage with what was actually written. Here in the first link Macnutt endorses Rodney Howard-Browne (really you should check out the background of this guy, his theology is bonkers), another chief proponent of the Toronto Blessing and actually clearly implies that the manifestations of the Toronto Blessing such as Holy laughter are actually from God! This actual movement is littered with heresy, false prophecies and manifestations such as people roaring like lions and making other animal noises.

To me it really looks like your the one blowing bubbles and seeing what you want to see.

 

[mr_bamber]

One final correction, Mr. Bamber, to your allegation that his books on “healing” and “deliverance” were endorsed by Wimber. I own the healing books, and there is no such endorsement either in the preface or on the back cover - nowhere. This appears to be some hearsay that you picked up. The only endorsement is from Rev. Michael Scanlon of Franciscan University, Donald Gelpi, SJ, Ms. Barbara Schlemon, and Rev. Tommy Tyson.

I don’t own anything on deliverance, so this may be true, I can’t say. But the other two books on healing are NOT endorsed by Wimber.

Again you are INCORRECT, it is not hearsay, it is on the back cover of the 2001 edition of healing. I know because I own a copy of this book. Also I repeat what I wrote before ‘Deliverance’ is endorsed by Wimber. Again remember John Wimber was a key proponent of the Toronto Blessing movement, a movement that is in total odds with Catholic ecclesiology, theology and spirituality.

 

[Sirach2]

Again you are INCORRECT, it is not hearsay, it is on the back cover of the **2001 **edition of healing. I know because I own a copy of this book. Also I repeat what I wrote before ‘Deliverance’ is endorsed by Wimber. Again remember John Wimber was a key proponent of the Toronto Blessing movement, a movement that is in total odds with Catholic ecclesiology, theology and spirituality.

Are you aware that Wimber died in 1997? And are you aware that he pulled his congregation away from the T.B. movement before he died, due to his disagreement with it?

Thirteen years is a long time ago and people may not be in the same space. Mary Magdalene was a sinner one day, a saint the next. St. Paul was persecuting christians one day, and became a beloved chosen vessel of God the next. You are pinning false motives on Francis when you have no current factual basis for doing so, and that is called “slander.”

An endorsement of someone 13 years ago on a book, does not negate the truths in that book, or mandate that the author holds the endorser’s beliefs. Back to blowing bubbles? I don’t know how this came to be on your copy of the book, since Amazon’s cover shows nothing of the sort, nor do my books.

I perceive that your antipathy for Francis MacNutt runs very deep, but has no basis for fact other than a few links that are very dated, and no personal experience of his past or present teachings. Unless you were there, you don’t know for a fact what he taught.

You were posting when I submitted my request for peace, so perhaps you missed it.

 

[mr_bamber]

Mr Bamber,

This was today’s gospel, and I did remember that you have some angst against me, judging from the response in this thread. I do pray that we may agree to be at peace, though we may still not see eye to eye.

Last night I recalled a very good teaching from St. Teresa of Avila that may well apply to Francis MacNutt.

Whatever may be his relationship with Our Lord at this point in time is not ours to judge, but I still stand by the fact that the teachings in his books on healing are very much like the good seed St. Teresa spoke about. And who knows, the Holy Spirit may still be bringing healing to the Body of Christ through his gifts.

The time frame you posted for his appearance at Toronto is ten years ago, and unless you attended that conference, it is unwise to judge the man, since he may have been there to teach the Catholic theology of healing and deliverance. It is good to remember that just because Jesus ate with pharisees, we cannot conclude that HE was a pharisee or that He believed as they did. When in their presence, He tried to present God’s truth to them.

I maintain that unless one knows by personal attendance at these conferences, especially those of late, or by actual links/articles, that MacNutt is teaching heresy, it is totally displeasing to God to label him according to other people’s hearsay.

God bless.

Sirach I have nothing against you, I only do what I can to protect the church I love and if that means saving souls by putting in the spotlight Macnutt activities so be it. As for the length of time that Macnutt said these things it doesnt really matter as he hasnt repudiated them and therefore people may read these things and believe his opinion to be true. I have never denied that Macnutt hasn’t written good things, but it still doesn’t excuse this learned, intelligent and gifted man, who should know better (this man was a priest with a PhD in theology) from getting involved in the Toronto movement and not repudiating his involvement with them. And also not basing his current ministry on the One, True Catholic Faith. I am sorry but his doctrinal statement on his website regarding is a joke:

“we are explicitly Christian and accept Sacred Scripture as our guide and norm. We realize that there are many denominations, and we do not want to further divide but to bring together all strands of Christian truth.”
christianhealingmin.org/about/doctrine.php

I am sorry but a Catholic priest (he still is in the eyes of the church) with a Ph.D in theology to say this is a complete joke. There is only true Church and anyone who is Catholic and ministering to God’s people should be clear about their Catholic identity. Therefore I maintain what I wrote earlier and I simply cannot endorse Macnutt or his books. Truth is simply too important.

May God bless you and keep you.

 

[mr_bamber]

Are you aware that Wimber died in 1997? And are you aware that he pulled his congregation away from the T.B. movement before he died, due to his disagreement with it?

Thirteen years is a long time ago and people may not be in the same space. Mary Magdalene was a sinner one day, a saint the next. St. Paul was persecuting christians one day, and became a beloved chosen vessel of God the next. You are pinning false motives on Francis when you have no current factual basis for doing so, and that is called “slander.”

An endorsement of someone 13 years ago on a book, does not negate the truths in that book, or mandate that the author holds the endorser’s beliefs. Back to blowing bubbles? I don’t know how this came to be on your copy of the book, since Amazon’s cover shows nothing of the sort, nor do my books.

I perceive that your antipathy for Francis MacNutt runs very deep, but has no basis for fact other than a few links that are very dated, and no personal experience of his past or present teachings. Unless you were there, you don’t know for a fact what he taught.

You were posting when I submitted my request for peace, so perhaps you missed it.

OK I take your point on John Wimber and taking his congregation away from the TB, I am aware of that and that he has died. I have actually been to Wimber and Macnutt conferences where they both spoke together. Again I have admitted there are good bits to Macnutt and I have read both healing and deliverance which are both very good in places, without outright endorsing them. I have nothing personal against Macnutt this is about truth my friend. Therefore I deny that I am slandering Macnutt, especially since he hasn’t professed his allegiance to the Catholic faith in his doctrinal statement on his website, after all the things he has done before his excommunication and after his return. Yes people do change, I would once endorse Macnutt, but not anymore, for reasons I have already outlined.

Shalom my friend.

 

[StephanieClaudi]

It is foolish to attribute the behavior of your grandparents on Father MacNutt, for you really don’t know the workings of their conscience. All of us have free will, and I seriously doubt that he is the root cause of their not receiving the sacraments. Nor have you read his books, for if you did, you would realize that he upholds redemptive suffering.

My thoughts lean toward their obtaining other outside influences from TV evanglists who preach a gospel that Father MacNutt never envisioned, a prosperity name-it and claim-it healing.

Whatever he may be today in his present theology, I don’t know, nor do you, but I highly recommend his two books on healing as being the most sound exposition of Catholic theology on healing that I have read so far.

No offense to you, Sirach, but you really don’t know my grandparents. I am not attributing all of their attitudes solely to McNutt, but I am saying that he had a profound influence in their lives and certainly in how they respond to the Catholic Church now - and from what I have heard from his lips, his own attitude towards the Church is not very positive. He seems bitter to me. Also, his role as leader of a well-known ministry, the way that he makes known his ex-priest status and seems to blame the Church for it is all scandalous, plain and simple. Because of that I am not interested in reading any of his books.

 

[StephanieClaudi]

Mr. Bamber, you rock. I totally agree with you.

 

[mr_bamber]

Back to blowing bubbles? I don’t know how this came to be on your copy of the book, since Amazon’s cover shows nothing of the sort, nor do my books.

amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0340661402/ref=sib_rdr_dpr?ie=UTF8&no=266239&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books

From the back of the book:
**‘A classic and foundational book on healing, it offers a comprehensive look into the history and effects of worldviews on healing ! I received practical insights into how to pray for the sick.’ – John Wimber **

 

[mr_bamber]

Mr. Bamber, you rock. I totally agree with you.

Thanks!

 

[leilas]

I come very late to this thread, but my interest in Francis McNutt has recently been sparked by the fact that he has written a long article in the Bible study/missalette-type magazine, The Word Among Us. I had known of him since my early involvement in the Charismatic movement. and had pretty much forgotten that he had left the priesthood. Anyhow, it would seem he must be in good standing now, as this is a very (Roman) Catholic magazine.
Leila

 

[Sirach2]

Hello, Leilas,

Thanks so much for your mention of this article. You did not give the link, so I am posting it here, with a few of his words. wau.org/archives/article/savior_and_healer/

Today, we no longer view the miracles of Jesus solely as proofs of his divinity or as guarantees that his teachings came from God. Rather, we see that Jesus’ healing power is an integral part of the good news of the gospel. The healings weren’t just proof. They were actually part of the way Jesus wanted to save his people, the way he wanted to restore all that they had lost.

The Mission Continues. Since the healing of our humanity is an essential part of the gospel message, we can now see why Jesus gave his disciples the power to heal when he sent them out to preach (Luke 9:1-2; 10:1,8-9). Jesus was simply giving them the same power to preach the message of good news that he himself preached. And that message was not just a doctrine; it contained the power of God to liberate our sick humanity from the wretched state it was in.

I found also a commentary from the publisher, Joe DiFato.

This issue [August 2010] is packed with information on the subject of healing. But don’t just read it. Test it out. Pray with your daughter when she comes home hurt by some negative remark made about her at school. Pray for your spouse when he or she becomes angry at another person. You may even want to offer to pray with your neighbor who is struggling with a head cold or perhaps something more serious. Praying for healing works, and the more we launch out and learn how to do it, the more God will use us.

 

[mr_bamber]

Some people might find this article helpful:

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aHQxcUL_Z58J:credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm+francis+macnutt+heresy+excommunication&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

 

[ajaxbogs]

Sorry to jump in the end of this thread (who says its the end?) but after reading Francis MacNutt’s refreshing article 'in ‘the WORD amoung us’ (Aug '10), I googled him & got here. Wow, what a discussion!
A recent convert & charismatic, I see such parallels in the arguments that I observed in Protestant circles. Prior to my conversion I intensely studied the Catechism especially in the area of the charisms. To my shock, the teachings of the Catholic Church were more in line with my beliefs & spiritual worldview that most mainline Protestant denominations. I was on my way home.
I also had a seed planted as a child when I saw in the 70s the Catholic Charismatic movement unfold, & actually had a Catholic priest come speak at my Pentecostal church. He & other ministers like Francis MacNutt are a beautiful part of the church & vital to bringing our Protestant brethren into the church. Unfortunately too many dogmatic Catholics chase them away & expand the divide. They need to get up to speed on the Bible, the Catechism & Papal teachings before they cause more damage.
Way to go Sirah2!

 

[Sirach2]

Hello there, and a big welcome to the forum! May we see more of you in the future!

I realize that the dogmatism of many is radical and offensive, for they will fight to the death to have their opinion prevail. More and more, the Spirit teaches me what I share here from the Imitation, Bk III, 44.

You must, as though your ear were dead, let many things pass as though you neither heard nor saw them, and think on such things as shall cause you inward peace of soul. It is also more profitable to you to turn the soul from things that displease you,and to let every man hold his opinion in them as seems best to him, rather than to strive against it with ill-considered words. Truly, if you were well established in God and beheld His judgments well, you would easily be content to be judged by others and to be overcome by others, as our Lord Jesus was for you at the time of His passion.

One of the maxims of Mother Teresa is that we willingly let others keep their own opinions, even when you know you’re right. Quite a saying, yes? I’ve seen a strong argument this morning by a person who just could not let go, and kept his one-up-manship going way beyond reason, causing him to appear very unspiritual and undisciplined.

That’s so prevalent in these forums that we will find plenty of opportunity to exercise this spiritual maxim and find instead of arguing, the inner comfort of the Spirit with His precious gift of peace.

Thanks so much for your support of Fr. MacNutt!

 

[gtrenewed]

Sirach2, good exhortation…but also consider the examples in Jesus’ ministry as seen in the following Scripture: There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven -
A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted;
A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up;
A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance;
A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing;
A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away;
A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak;
A time for love and a time for hate;
A time for war and a time for peace;

The Holy Spirit will guide us when to be in which time according to our giftings for the
Body is not made up of just eyes or just ears or just hands or just feet.
God Bless

 

[Beeline]

No offense to you, Sirach, but you really don’t know my grandparents. I am not attributing all of their attitudes solely to McNutt, but I am saying that he had a profound influence in their lives and certainly in how they respond to the Catholic Church now - and from what I have heard from his lips, his own attitude towards the Church is not very positive. He seems bitter to me. Also, his role as leader of a well-known ministry, the way that he makes known his ex-priest status and seems to blame the Church for it is all scandalous, plain and simple. Because of that I am not interested in reading any of his books.

I was interested in one of McNutts books, which brings me here.
It would seem that a laicized priest , now married and looking to make a living is casting a wide net as it pertains to a Christian audience. I see enough here in these posts that I would choose another , more authentically Catholic author.

 

[bettyg51]

I was so sad to discover that he more or less dropped off the face of the earth, for he was, in those days, a very gifted priestly servant. Many, many souls were healed in body, mind and spirit, and his writings encouraged the family to pray together for God to heal their loved ones.

He spoke in St. Louis this summer. He is 80 years old now and not able to be as active as he was, but still a gifted servant of God. I am one of those souls who were healed through his ministry. He helped me believe that God is not dead and that God really cares for us.

The Catholic Church has always believed in miracles, especially healing. His book is great in explaining how to pray for healing and why our prayers aren’t always answered as we expect. There is no conflict with Catholic teaching in them. If we ever start to think miracles are impossible, we have lost the true faith.

 

[Lucky_Scrunchy]

After reading an article on Spirit Daily about Frances Macnutt, I was very excited to get his book on the Practice of Healing Prayer. Mr. Macnutt also has a healing ministry and teaches people how to pray for healing. I contacted them and told them I would love it if they could pray over me and my dad, but we’re over here in California, they are in Florida. A lady from this ministry suggested a “healing room” in California called Camarillo Healing Rooms. It looks like its sponsored by a protestant church. Are we, as Catholics, allowed to participate in something like this?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

After reading an article on Spirit Daily about Frances Macnutt, I was very excited to get his book on the Practice of Healing Prayer. Mr. Macnutt also has a healing ministry and teaches people how to pray for healing. I contacted them and told them I would love it if they could pray over me and my dad, but we’re over here in California, they are in Florida. A lady from this ministry suggested a “healing room” in California called Camarillo Healing Rooms. It looks like its sponsored by a protestant church. Are we, as Catholics, allowed to participate in something like this?

I would say no. If you can afford it, go to Lourdes instead. If not, check with your diocese and see if they have a healing priest/healing Masses. Ours does

 

[Sirach2]

All prayer is honored by God, Lucky. God doesn’t expect us to make a transocean journey to Lourdes, if someone nearby is endowed by His Spirit to pray for healing. Remember, a baptized Protestant does have the Holy Spirit, even though they are not 100% in communion with us. God can likewise bestow that charism on anyone who lives in communion with Him in the Spirit.

Be selective though, if you are able, and see if you can find out something about this group before you go. If it is a prayer service, and not a liturgy or such, it could be God who leads you there. Pray to Him and ask that He give you peace about it to confirm His direction. If it does not come, then don’t go.