Francis May Support Aboriginal Theology?

[trickster]

In his recent interviews, Francis shook things up - as all good leaders do - in challenging the strategy of some of the catholic community to be “one” or “two” issue Catholics - which we all know is impossible…yet perception is just as real as reality. We are challenge to rethink strategy in relation to the GLBT community, abortion and contraception issues. Not that we are talking about changing those doctrines, but perhaps, to put those truths into a larger context which is more to the soul of the Catholic Church.

For me as an aboriginal catholic these words are encouraging; for the first time I feel that there is an openess to talk about bridging theologies around native spirituality and catholic teaching and providing alternatives to the progressive - traditionalist dynamics in relation to indigenous spirituality becoming more practiced in Catholic celebration.

I am excited about this Pope. I think he is moving the church forward as did JP II in his day and place…we have been blessed by the clarifications and anchoring Benedict has done for us. Benedict has been a blessing in supporting us in the understanding and works of the Holy Spirit through JP I and II, as well as provided a stronger theological context for the Spirit to work though Francis.

These indeed are good times and I for one feel the energy of the Spirit once again…and that is just my own personal feeling as one who felt a bit weighted down by the details of Catholics who get caught up in detail about how things are supposed to be as opposed to being open to the chaos, unexpectedness, spontaneity of the Spirit…thank God again for creative times.

Thoughts

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

The Pope is simply echoing what Pope Benedict said in 2006 concerning the hot topic issues of contraception, abortion, etc. :

*If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith - a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us.

In this perspective I would now like to continue by completing last Tuesday’s reflections and to stress once again: what matters above all is to tend one’s personal relationship with God, with that God who revealed himself to us in Christ.*

 

[Origen52]

Bruce, Pope Francis, as a Jesuit must know about Jean de Brébeuf and the martyrs of st Marie among the Hurons. I’m sure he shares the respect for native spirituality that many Jesuits, I’ve met in Ontario have. Pope John Paul II had a great love for our native people. I remember when he went to fort simpson in 1987 to keep a promise he made to them after his visit in 1984 was cancelled because of fog. If you want to read the homily he gave during this visit you can find it here.

cccb.ca/site/Files/1987-09-20_Homily.html

 

[trickster]

The Pope is simply echoing what Pope Benedict said in 2006 concerning the hot topic issues of contraception, abortion, etc. :

*If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith - a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us.

In this perspective I would now like to continue by completing last Tuesday’s reflections and to stress once again: what matters above all is to tend one’s personal relationship with God, with that God who revealed himself to us in Christ.*

That is so true, isn’t it. I think Benedict may be remembered in history as the pope who grounded the church between two charismatic leaders led by the Holy Spirit; Benedict always gets minimized in many ways; but he is saying the same thing as JP and Francis, you are correct I am not sure why people are having so much challenges with the more direct approach of Francis…

Bruce Ferguson
trickster

 

[trickster]

Bruce, Pope Francis, as a Jesuit must know about Jean de Brébeuf and the martyrs of st Marie among the Hurons. I’m sure he shares the respect for native spirituality that many Jesuits, I’ve met in Ontario have. Pope John Paul II had a great love for our native people. I remember when he went to fort simpson in 1987 to keep a promise he made to them after his visit in 1984 was cancelled because of fog. If you want to read the homily he gave during this visit you can find it here.

cccb.ca/site/Files/1987-09-20_Homily.html

Thank you Origen52 (I seem to remember your name from past conversations - how have you been?) We are so much on the same page here…I have additional hopes as Francis is an American and has been directly in touch with indigenous peoples in South America…so there are some exciting times ahead on this front. Also, Francis mentioned something about the need for “more theology” on the question of women - not sure if he was referring to priesthood or their role in general…but the notion of needing more “theology”…certainly fits into what I have felt for a long time - the need for a bridging aboriginal theology linking in more informed terms native sprituality and catholic teaching/spirituality. Can a native spiritualty support and inform catholic teaching: if so, we ought to be articulating this theological link. That is why this particular Pope captures my imagination and interest…we may be able to start the work now…

Take care, and I look forward to your thinking and reflections.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[Origen52]

Thank you Origen52 (I seem to remember your name from past conversations - how have you been?) We are so much on the same page here…I have additional hopes as Francis is an American and has been directly in touch with indigenous peoples in South America…so there are some exciting times ahead on this front. Also, Francis mentioned something about the need for “more theology” on the question of women - not sure if he was referring to priesthood or their role in general…but the notion of needing more “theology”…certainly fits into what I have felt for a long time - the need for a bridging aboriginal theology linking in more informed terms native sprituality and catholic teaching/spirituality. Can a native spiritualty support and inform catholic teaching: if so, we ought to be articulating this theological link. That is why this particular Pope captures my imagination and interest…we may be able to start the work now…

Take care, and I look forward to your thinking and reflections.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

Hi Bruce, I’ve been having some problems dealing with the extremists battling over the words of Pope Francis. I find any discussion which stems from anger, hatred or a position of sanctimonious self-righteousness upsetting. That’s why I’m trying to just stick to gentle, optimistic threads like yours. Maybe a sweat lodge might be good for me right now.

Long walks and listening to the talks of father groeschel will have to do me for now.

Love and peace

 

[Jon_Paul]

For me as an aboriginal catholic these words are encouraging; for the first time I feel that there is an openess to talk about bridging theologies around native spirituality and catholic teaching and providing alternatives to the progressive - traditionalist dynamics in relation to indigenous spirituality becoming more practiced in Catholic celebration.

What is “aboriginal theology”? What do you mean by your words here? Is this not syncretism?

 

[Origen52]

What is “aboriginal theology”? What do you mean by your words here? Is this not syncretism?

Jon Paul, if you’re interested in finding out about aboriginal spirituality and the Catholic Church this site is a good place to begin.

cccb.ca/site/eng/commissions-committees-and-aboriginal-council/aboriginal-council/canadian-catholic-aboriginal-council

 

[trickster]

Hi Bruce, I’ve been having some problems dealing with the extremists battling over the words of Pope Francis. I find any discussion which stems from anger, hatred or a position of sanctimonious self-righteousness upsetting. That’s why I’m trying to just stick to gentle, optimistic threads like yours. Maybe a sweat lodge might be good for me right now.

Long walks and listening to the talks of father groeschel will have to do me for now.

Love and peace

Those are awesome words Origen52; wish I could take you to a sweat. I hear you well on the chatter around Pope Francis’ recent comments; and I am sure Francis knew exactly what he was getting into. The beauty of chaos (as in the sense of Genesis) is that we are birthing something new here, or re-birthing work started by Benedict, JP I and II, Paul VI and John XXIII, who knows…it’s just exciting to work along side of the bishops in our own capacities to understand where the Spirit leads… And that is my focus as a Catholic…

I have to look up Fr. Groeschel … tell me a bit about his work and talks, I would be very interested.

Bruce Ferguson

 

[trickster]

Jon Paul, if you’re interested in finding out about aboriginal spirituality and the Catholic Church this site is a good place to begin.

cccb.ca/site/eng/commissions-committees-and-aboriginal-council/aboriginal-council/canadian-catholic-aboriginal-council

thanks Origen52

Bruce Ferguson

 

[trickster]

What is “aboriginal theology”? What do you mean by your words here? Is this not syncretism?

Hi Jon Paul, I am in a hurry to get ready for work right now…so I will get back to you as I like your question.

The short answer to the question is NO. Syncretism is when you take components from two or more cultures, spiritual views and/or religions and create or birth something new.

What I am proposing is the idea of looking at the Holy Spirit’s work with indigenous peoples prior to the arrival of the Church, honouring that and seeing how the Spirit’s work in what I call the Native American Old Testament, speaks to the teachings of the Church. I believe that a universal language about one monolithic (think that the word) in three persons is possible and can be informed by spiritualities and religions. I believe that is also said officially by the church somewhere.

You are correct in raising the concerns cause these issues need to be articulated within an aboriginal theology bridging native spirtuality and catholic teaching; “neo-paganism” is another concept many catholics think that I am talking about, or changing the liturgy which is impossible; so a more inclusive and broad conversation needs to take place.

Also Jon Paul…I would be talking to Catholic theologians as well as our local bishops about these things, so the “Aboriginal theology” I am talking about would be informed or inspired by our shepherds as well…

So, thanks for the question, i hope you have many more questions and thoughts cause this is an inclusive thread and open to all ideas and together we also ground ourselves in the faith.

Cheerz

Bruce Ferguson
trickster (indigenous symbol of transformation).

 

[EasterJoy]

By incorporating aboriginal theology, I gather that you simply mean a purposeful continuation of the sporadic phenomenon by which local religious attainments that were in place by the time Catholic missionaries arrive have been incorporated into the local catechesis, sometimes with the outcome that the missionaries and their converts have something to bring back to enrich the small “t” traditions that are in our deposit of faith.

For instance, there are practices and means of understanding our ancient faith that originated in Ireland or Spain or Poland or Mexico or India, rather than every means of understanding and expressing the endless riches of the Church always coming out from Rome. In one specific example, the practice of private celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation came out of Ireland and England, not from Rome, but the “new” ritual had nothing in it that was in violation of the Apostolic faith that had gone out to Ireland and England in the first place. A less-universal practice would be the celebration of the Days of the Dead in Mexico. This was the transfer of a practice of ancestor-remembrance that had previously been celebrated in August, just as the Irish practices of the autumn were transferred onto an All Saints observance, which in turn had been instituted as a local observance in Rome under Gregory III, but was later put on the calendar of the Universal Church by Gregory IV.

Yes, that kind of thing has been happening for the entire history of the Church. It works much better than trying to lay some “one-sized-fits-all” Roman Catholic practice over the local religious senses like a layer of concrete over a meadow. The idea is to choose to cultivate what was found with an expansion based on a fuller understanding of the truth and a weeding out of misunderstanding, rather than overwhelming the truths already there in favor of an utterly foreign way of expressing much the same thing.

 

[Origen52]

Those are awesome words Origen52; wish I could take you to a sweat. I hear you well on the chatter around Pope Francis’ recent comments; and I am sure Francis knew exactly what he was getting into. The beauty of chaos (as in the sense of Genesis) is that we are birthing something new here, or re-birthing work started by Benedict, JP I and II, Paul VI and John XXIII, who knows…it’s just exciting to work along side of the bishops in our own capacities to understand where the Spirit leads… And that is my focus as a Catholic…

I have to look up Fr. Groeschel … tell me a bit about his work and talks, I would be very interested.

Bruce Ferguson

If you go to youtube and type father groschel in the search you wil find several of his video sermons. Be aware that in 2012 at age 80, after having suffered a near fatal accident and a stroke father made, what were construed to be pro sexually abusive priests. Some apologized saying his words were the result of the stroke and fatigue. I think his words, understood in the right context made a lot of sense. You will have to make up your own mind about this controversy. All this does nothing to negate the contributions he has made to spirituality and the teachings of the church. One of the reasons I hold on to the church, despite its chaos are the words of father groeschel. This is a link to one of his lectures.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVGuQjyUts

 

[trickster]

By incorporating aboriginal theology, I gather that you simply mean a purposeful continuation of the sporadic phenomenon by which local religious attainments that were in place by the time Catholic missionaries arrive have been incorporated into the local catechesis, sometimes with the outcome that the missionaries and their converts have something to bring back to enrich the small “t” traditions that are in our deposit of faith.

For instance, there are practices and means of understanding our ancient faith that originated in Ireland or Spain or Poland or Mexico or India, rather than every means of understanding and expressing the endless riches of the Church always coming out from Rome. In one specific example, the practice of private celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation came out of Ireland and England, not from Rome, but the “new” ritual had nothing in it that was in violation of the Apostolic faith that had gone out to Ireland and England in the first place. A less-universal practice would be the celebration of the Days of the Dead in Mexico. This was the transfer of a practice of ancestor-remembrance that had previously been celebrated in August, just as the Irish practices of the autumn were transferred onto an All Saints observance, which in turn had been instituted as a local observance in Rome under Gregory III, but was later put on the calendar of the Universal Church by Gregory IV.

Yes, that kind of thing has been happening for the entire history of the Church. It works much better than trying to lay some “one-sized-fits-all” Roman Catholic practice over the local religious senses like a layer of concrete over a meadow. The idea is to choose to cultivate what was found with an expansion based on a fuller understanding of the truth and a weeding out of misunderstanding, rather than overwhelming the truths already there in favor of an utterly foreign way of expressing much the same thing.

Easterjoy, you hit it on the head! I am in total agreement with you. The only thing I would add is that I don’t see the process as linear (our people fitting into the catholic world view) but rather a reading of the two traditions against or within each other. I believe that aboriginal eco-theology as an example may inform or ground catholic teaching, so our people I think have a lot to offer Catholics and the church in terms of experiential ways of experiencing and living the truths the church teaches…

Thanks so much for contextualizing what I am saying as well. Yesterday I sent a letter to the Secretary General of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops about this subject so I am excited to see how the bishops would like to entertain the idea of an “Aboriginal theological bridge” between native spirituality, the concept of a Native American Old Testament and catholicism.

This year the catholic bishops are exploring how they can respond to the call of Francis to connect with the marginalized and they have identified our people (Aboriginal Canadians) as a key group of people to work more closely with, so we’ll see…I’m encouraged by the Bishops here in Canada as well as the direction this pope is taking us… because of a calling I think I have around aboriginal catholicism…so thank you Easterjoy.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (indigenous symbol for transformation).

 

[trickster]

If you go to youtube and type father groschel in the search you wil find several of his video sermons. Be aware that in 2012 at age 80, after having suffered a near fatal accident and a stroke father made, what were construed to be pro sexually abusive priests. Some apologized saying his words were the result of the stroke and fatigue. I think his words, understood in the right context made a lot of sense. You will have to make up your own mind about this controversy. All this does nothing to negate the contributions he has made to spirituality and the teachings of the church. One of the reasons I hold on to the church, despite its chaos are the words of father groeschel. This is a link to one of his lectures.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVGuQjyUts

Thank you Origen52 I will certainly look at that … and take your advice on the “recent controversy”…I already like him if he is controversial, most saints in our catholic history were controversial in their time and place…we’ll see and we can share a conversation about where Fr. Groeschel is coming from or the points he is trying to make…take care… rushing to get my e-mail and stuff done before leaving for work.

Bruce

 

[EasterJoy]

Easterjoy, you hit it on the head! I am in total agreement with you. The only thing I would add is that I don’t see the process as linear (our people fitting into the catholic world view) but rather a reading of the two traditions against or within each other. I believe that aboriginal eco-theology as an example may inform or ground catholic teaching, so our people I think have a lot to offer Catholics and the church in terms of experiential ways of experiencing and living the truths the church teaches…

Thanks so much for contextualizing what I am saying as well. Yesterday I sent a letter to the Secretary General of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops about this subject so I am excited to see how the bishops would like to entertain the idea of an “Aboriginal theological bridge” between native spirituality, the concept of a Native American Old Testament and catholicism.

This year the catholic bishops are exploring how they can respond to the call of Francis to connect with the marginalized and they have identified our people (Aboriginal Canadians) as a key group of people to work more closely with, so we’ll see…I’m encouraged by the Bishops here in Canada as well as the direction this pope is taking us… because of a calling I think I have around aboriginal catholicism…so thank you Easterjoy.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (indigenous symbol for transformation).

There is a caveat that needs to be kept in mind, which is the unsurpassable preeminence of the Pascal Mystery within the religious need of each person. The heritage that comes from Judaism is preeminent, the Apostolic Tradition is preeminent, the foundational nature of the saraments are preeminent. Among the true and varied riches of the Church, there is tremendous variety, there are rich and unique expressions from variuos peoples and saints that God has added to the Body of Christ, but there are also unalterable foundation stones.

That is not meant as a correction of what you are saying, but a clarification. There are not many spirits being added from the four corners of the earth, but rather each corner giving its unique response by the power (and therefore within the unity) of the One Spirit.

 

[Sean_O_L]

G’day Trickster!

Have you seen any of Hal English’s representations of Aboriginality - originally published by ANNALS AUSTRALASIA - A Journal of Catholic Culture?

I have reproduced some of them at jloughnan.tripod.com/portcaseytim.htm

I reckon that Warren Mundine is tops!!!

With kind regards and God bless,

F. John Loughnan

 

[trickster]

There is a caveat that needs to be kept in mind, which is the unsurpassable preeminence of the Pascal Mystery within the religious need of each person. The heritage that comes from Judaism is preeminent, the Apostolic Tradition is preeminent, the foundational nature of the saraments are preeminent. Among the true and varied riches of the Church, there is tremendous variety, there are rich and unique expressions from variuos peoples and saints that God has added to the Body of Christ, but there are also unalterable foundation stones.

That is not meant as a correction of what you are saying, but a clarification. There are not many spirits being added from the four corners of the earth, but rather each corner giving its unique response by the power (and therefore within the unity) of the One Spirit.

We’re not that far apart on this Easterjoy. A true conversation between catholicism and aboriginal spirituality would have to honour what is what in each tradition. While I am not talking about amending native spirituality to fit into a catholic box, i am also not talking about amending catholicism into an aboriginal box either. I believe that the two traditions are far closer than each peoples’ narrative allow. I am talking about digging deep into our own traditions as aborignal people and see what speaks to catholicsm.

 

[trickster]

G’day Trickster!

Have you seen any of Hal English’s representations of Aboriginality - originally published by ANNALS AUSTRALASIA - A Journal of Catholic Culture?

I have reproduced some of them at jloughnan.tripod.com/portcaseytim.htm

I reckon that Warren Mundine is tops!!!

With kind regards and God bless,

F. John Loughnan

Thank you Sean O…that stuff looks very intersting…will take some time to go through it…are there any particular articles or cartoons, you recommend me look at first?

Thanks… I will enjoy…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[Mike30]

Easterjoy, you hit it on the head! I am in total agreement with you. The only thing I would add is that I don’t see the process as linear (our people fitting into the catholic world view) but rather a reading of the two traditions against or within each other. I believe that aboriginal eco-theology as an example may inform or ground catholic teaching, so our people I think have a lot to offer Catholics and the church in terms of experiential ways of experiencing and living the truths the church teaches…

Thanks so much for contextualizing what I am saying as well. Yesterday I sent a letter to the Secretary General of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops about this subject so I am excited to see how the bishops would like to entertain the idea of an “Aboriginal theological bridge” between native spirituality, **the concept of a Native American Old Testament and catholicism. **This year the catholic bishops are exploring how they can respond to the call of Francis to connect with the marginalized and they have identified our people (Aboriginal Canadians) as a key group of people to work more closely with, so we’ll see…I’m encouraged by the Bishops here in Canada as well as the direction this pope is taking us… because of a calling I think I have around aboriginal catholicism…so thank you Easterjoy.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (indigenous symbol for transformation).

The concept of a native American Old Testament?

What exactly is that? It sounds, at least on the face of it, that you are advocating the establishment of an entire new faith or branch of the faith with new doctrine,dogmas and scriptural authority to back them up. Where would this Old Testament come from? What sources. What authorities? Which set of aboriginal beliefs? North American, South American, Central American? Who would it affect? Native Americans only or everyone else as well?

Didn’t the Mormons already try that? I mean with the Native American Old Testament and all that?