Francis May Support Aboriginal Theology?

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Mike30 said:
The concept of a native American Old Testament?:confused::confused:

What exactly is that? It sounds, at least on the face of it, that you are advocating the establishment of an entire new faith or branch of the faith with new doctrine,dogmas and scriptural authority to back them up. Where would this Old Testament come from? What sources. What authorities? Which set of aboriginal beliefs? North American, South American, Central American? Who would it affect? Native Americans only or everyone else as well?

Didn’t the Mormons already try that? I mean with the Native American Old Testament and all that?
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Hi Mike30…I think that you are reading too much into what I am talking about. The Presbyterian theologian who developed the idea is Bishop Steven Charleston, who is Choctow Native American… the whole notion is to honor the work of the Holy Spirit prior to the arrival of Christianity… the Mormons had a vision (philosophy) that connected our people to the lost tribe of israel and through the angel Moroni devleoped a whole notion of Jesus walking on Native north america.

I am not talking about that at all…and you make a good point there…what I am talking about is taking a look at native spirituality, see the good in it, and bring it into conversation with Christianity…much of this has already been said and published out of the vatican…JP II had said a lot about the idea of bringing aboriginal experiential and spiritual knowledge to the table…so I am not talking about anything radical here…
 
Hi Bruce,

If you have the time - start from the first?

The Casey and Tim series is a cartoon Australian out-back adventure featuring interaction with aboriginals.

Here is one of an as-yet unpublished pic. featuring aboriginal spirituality as interpreted by Hal English:

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/english8301.jpg

Published on the back cover of the Missionaries of the Sacred Heart (Sydney) Journal of Catholic Culture, “ANNALS AUSTRALASIA” January,1983.

for a couple more

jloughnan.tripod.com/english8305.jpg and

jloughnan.tripod.com/english8305.jpg

God bless,

John
;
 
Sean_O_L said:
Bruce,

You may know that the Missionaries of the Sacred Heart (M.S.C.) have been long-time missionaries to the indigenous peoples of Australia, New Guinea, the Pacific Islands, Japan, etc.

Here is one of the files on Papua New Guinea that you may find interesting:

jloughnan.tripod.com/pngearlychch.htm

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/pngearlychch1.jpg

For more on missions to ALL peoples - have a look at the main page

jloughnan.tripod.com/portal.htm

God bless on your journey,

John
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well thank you sean o… I will follow up. I will also share my opinions and “takes” with you once I review the material… the missionaries of the sacred heart are particularly interesting I will do research on them…for our people in Canada it was the Oblates of Mary Immaculate who did much of the work with the indigenous peoples in Canada…take care for now.

Bruce
 
Trickster, is your idea similar to the Jesuit missionaries to China keeping certain Chinese (particularly Confucian) rites that were in line with the Catholic Church? One pope permitted it and a later pope forbade it. Ultimately (two centuries later), Pope Pius XII decided in favor of the Jesuit practice:

As to China: in (S.C.Prop. Fid., 8 Dec., 1939) AAS 32-24, Catholics are permitted to be present at ceremonies in honor of Confucius in Confucian temples or in schools; Erection of image of Confucius or tablet with his name on it is permitted in Catholic schools. Catholic magistrates and students are permitted to passively attend public ceremonies which have the appearance of superstition. It is licit and unobjectionable for head inclinations and other mani- festations of civil observance before the deceased or their images.
Source: jloughnan.tripod.com/remmlist.htm

More info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy
 
I find attempts to add national/folk/populist elements to Catholicism a bore and a dead end. We want to propitiate a mighty God who has told us how He wants to be worshipped, not see mediocre artists insert mundane ideas into His rites.

This is especially the case if people are simply making it up out of books they’ve read.

The local culture should conform to Catholic practice, not the other way around. Catholicism liberated native people from the tyranny of demonic gods and also human tyrants, who told their subjects they were inferior serfs, to be killed at a whim.

Many years ago a king insisted that Rome should conform to his ideas about Christianity and his daughter, who became queen, finished the job by creating an ethnic Catholic church. And there was rejoicing in the land.

Today it’s called the Church Of England.
 
QuestingKnight said:
I find attempts to add national/folk/populist elements to Catholicism a bore and a dead end. We want to propitiate a mighty God who has told us how He wants to be worshipped, not see mediocre artists insert mundane ideas into His rites.

This is especially the case if people are simply making it up out of books they’ve read.

The local culture should conform to Catholic practice, not the other way around. Catholicism liberated native people from the tyranny of demonic gods and also human tyrants, who told their subjects they were inferior serfs, to be killed at a whim.

Many years ago a king insisted that Rome should conform to his ideas about Christianity and his daughter, who became queen, finished the job by creating an ethnic Catholic church. And there was rejoicing in the land.

Today it’s called the Church Of England.
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👍
 
QuestingKnight said:
I find attempts to add national/folk/populist elements to Catholicism a bore and a dead end. We want to propitiate a mighty God who has told us how He wants to be worshipped, not see mediocre artists insert mundane ideas into His rites.
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You do realize that the Church has historically allowed cultures to retain their identity as long as it is not contrary to the Church? The Ethiopian Use of the Alexandrian Rite is very “Ethiopian”. The Syriac Rites are very semitic.

The Asian Catholic Churches permit the historical Confucian rites to be celebrated because they are not contrary to the Church. This is in fact how the Jesuits acted with the approval of the pope when evangelizing China in the 1600s. A later pope forbade it and, later, Pope Pius XII again permitted this as it is to this day.

The martyr, St Andrew Kim Taegon, was the first Korean born Catholic priest. He dressed in a white, traditional hanbok as an alb:
https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1239956_572738749457170_1766696363_n.jpg
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
The Pope is simply echoing what Pope Benedict said in 2006 concerning the hot topic issues of contraception, abortion, etc. :

*If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith - a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us.

In this perspective I would now like to continue by completing last Tuesday’s reflections and to stress once again: what matters above all is to tend one’s personal relationship with God, with that God who revealed himself to us in Christ.*
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I have always loved this quote, because it tells us that the Church is not about dos and don’ts. It also shows us that the popes refuse to get cornered into giving black and white answers, which is what some people want. There are things that horribly wrong, but not because we say so, but because of what the Gospel says. Without the Gospel background, any explanation will sound arbitrary.
 
Zekariya said:
You do realize that the Church has historically allowed cultures to retain their identity as long as it is not contrary to the Church?
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I was thinking more about banal, on-the-spot, pseudo-historical fabrications. With acoustic guitars.
 
Mike30 said:
The concept of a native American Old Testament?:confused::confused:

What exactly is that? It sounds, at least on the face of it, that you are advocating the establishment of an entire new faith or branch of the faith with new doctrine,dogmas and scriptural authority to back them up. Where would this Old Testament come from? What sources. What authorities? Which set of aboriginal beliefs? North American, South American, Central American? Who would it affect? Native Americans only or everyone else as well?

Didn’t the Mormons already try that? I mean with the Native American Old Testament and all that?
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Hi Mike, sorry for not getting back earlier…working 6 days last week and only 5 days this week 🙂 Working hard this year to pay for some theology courses next September…

I just wanted to quickly assure you that the reference about the “Native American Old Testament” is simply a concept, nothing more… a neat way of thinking about how to connect Native spirituality with that of Christianity written by Episcopalean Choctow Bishop Charles Stevenson I think…No not talking about establishing a new faith or not doing any sycretic projects or stuff like that… The Mormons…well that’s another story…based on the assumption that the lost tribe got lost but lended up in America which I don’t thiink too many of our people believe…I will get back to you with a more thought out answer on the weekend as I have two days off to relax and think…

cheerz mike

Bruce Ferguson
 
Zekariya said:
Trickster, is your idea similar to the Jesuit missionaries to China keeping certain Chinese (particularly Confucian) rites that were in line with the Catholic Church? One pope permitted it and a later pope forbade it. Ultimately (two centuries later), Pope Pius XII decided in favor of the Jesuit practice:

As to China: in (S.C.Prop. Fid., 8 Dec., 1939) AAS 32-24, Catholics are permitted to be present at ceremonies in honor of Confucius in Confucian temples or in schools; Erection of image of Confucius or tablet with his name on it is permitted in Catholic schools. Catholic magistrates and students are permitted to passively attend public ceremonies which have the appearance of superstition. It is licit and unobjectionable for head inclinations and other mani- festations of civil observance before the deceased or their images.
Source: jloughnan.tripod.com/remmlist.htm

More info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy
Click to expand...
Hi Zecharia…sorry for not getting back earlier…doing a lot of overtime at work…and too tired after my shifts to do any justice to many of the postings here on Catholic Answers…I don’t know too much about the Jesuit work…but I have heard they were remarkable innovators in the days they went to china…equally just as innovative with indigenous peoples in South America…also the Fransiscans were very inter-religious minded in their day. the Salinas Monument in New Mexico is a place where those dialogues happened in the 1600’s… so my sense is that there is a lot to learn from those missionary efforts.

I am talking about that… but also talking about a theology which studies the interaction and nexus between native spirituality and the church…there has been no articulation of that potential theology and that is kind of where I am going…I will do more thinking about this and give you a more thought out answer this weekend as I have two days off…

Cheerz

Bruce Ferguson
 
QuestingKnight said:
I find attempts to add national/folk/populist elements to Catholicism a bore and a dead end. We want to propitiate a mighty God who has told us how He wants to be worshipped, not see mediocre artists insert mundane ideas into His rites.

This is especially the case if people are simply making it up out of books they’ve read.

The local culture should conform to Catholic practice, not the other way around. Catholicism liberated native people from the tyranny of demonic gods and also human tyrants, who told their subjects they were inferior serfs, to be killed at a whim.

Many years ago a king insisted that Rome should conform to his ideas about Christianity and his daughter, who became queen, finished the job by creating an ethnic Catholic church. And there was rejoicing in the land.

Today it’s called the Church Of England.
Click to expand...
Hello QuestioningKnight…sorry I did not get back to you earlier…I have been doing overtime at work and am too tired after shifts to do justice to your questions and thoughts…I will try and be more detailed this weekend when I get some time to re-energize and focus.

Just as a few starters…I just want to address why you would think the notion of developing a theology that looks at the nexus between indigenous spirituality and catholicism is a dead end. Are you aware of the writings of Pope John Paul II who encouraged us - as aboriginal peoples - to be ourselves and to fully express ourselves in the body of the church…Do you know that the pope said that Jesus himself is aboriginal in that the communion of the body of Christ is inclusive of Aboriginal peoples too…

We’ll start there and then this weekend I would be glad to move with you on your other points and any points you may bring up in responding to this post… I look forward to the conversation…

Take care Questioning Knight

Trickster (an indigenous symbol of conversion - transforming from one form to another)
bruce ferguson
 
QuestingKnight said:
I was thinking more about banal, on-the-spot, pseudo-historical fabrications. With acoustic guitars.
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Ah, good point QuestingKnight (sorry I got your name wrong…I just realized it says questing, not questioning 🙂 apologies for that…

Yes we are not talking about fabrications and you are absolutely right. What I am talking about is based strongly on remembered oral and written traditions, verified by social science (anthropololgy, sociology, all that stuff)…as well as catholic catechism. And when I am doing this, I am doing this in partnership with the church.

I have asked my local bishop to consider allowing me to work with a catholic theologian through this process; have written to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops and will be attending and working on this as a theology student at the Dominican University College where I will be doing my B.Th…so as you can see the work ahead will be within the framework of Catholic teaching, tradition and so forth…so as you can see, “on-the-spot” agendas supported by acoustic quitars is not on the table…(although i am a post vatican II catholic and love the quitar as part of our mass 🙂

cheerz questing knight.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
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