Francis to Abolish Summorum Pontificorum?

[omgriley]

I did not mean offense by the question, Father.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I did not mean offense by the question, Father.

A cleric who has returned to the lay state could no longer use his title. My title is part of my user name.

 

[OraLabora]

I beg to differ. The reception which Summorum Pontificum received was overwhelmingly positive.

For a small minority, really. The reaction of the vast majority of Catholics in the pews ranges from “Summorum what?’” to indifference, with a smattering of hostility thrown in for good measure here and there (actually quite a bit of hostility here given the peculiar history of the pre-Conciliar Church in Quebec).

I can tell you in my diocese there is no overwhelming clamour for the EF Mass, nor great rejoicing by the average Catholic in the pew over SP. Maybe that’s because there is a Benedictine abbey in the area where the OF Mass is celebrated as Sacrosanctum Concilium intended, complete with Gregorian chant. Or maybe it’s because the average Catholic simply doesn’t care.

I do see an appetite for good liturgy, which fills the abbey church every Sunday. But for the EF??? Not so much.

 

[Augustinian]

Or maybe it’s because the average Catholic simply doesn’t care.

I think that really sums it up.

I believe I heard an average attendance number of about 400 for the Latin Mass here in Pittsburgh- that’s just not that many in a diocese of 600,000 Catholics. I guess they help keep the St Boniface building busy, sharing it with the geographic parish as well as the Vietnamese Catholic community. But its just not a big factor.

 

[commenter]

twf:

Vancouver has 400k Catholics and I am aware of three parishes with Sunday EF Masses, and one with daily EF Masses… that being said, I am not aware of any in the other 4 dioceses of the Province.

Mileage really seems to vary.

Indeed. Quebec also has a special antipathy to Latin and anything pre-Conciliar on account of the Jansenist/clericalist leanings of the pre-Conciliar Church in Quebec and the subsequent “quiet revolution” of the early '60s which coincided with Vatican II time-wise. Those who didn’t bail from the Church at that point, fully embraced the changes of the Council to the point of hostility for anything pre-Conciliar. There is a mild thaw… a slight resurgence in interest in Gregorian chant for instance, in areas where it can be heard (I belong to a schola based in Sherbrooke, Quebec). But beyond that there is very little appetite for the TLM in Quebec.

From what I have read, and the few visits there, there is not much appetite for the Ordinary Form Mass, or any form Mass in Quebec now.

 

[commenter]

I don’t doubt your experience, but if we are talking numbers, I think the vast majority of pew-sitting Catholics could not even tell you what Summorum Pontificorum is, let alone are they clamoring for the old form of the Mass to return.

I’m glad Benedict promulgated Summorum Pontificum. I’m glad that such obstacles were removed to allow for wider availability. But I think if it were going to attract people to the Church in droves, then that will happen organically.

People can only take advantage of things, if they are given some explanation. Where I live there is no mention of the Latin Mass in the diocesan newspaper, no mention of it is schools or religious education programs. Most Catholics have no idea it is available, and those few who know it is available have no idea why some Catholics do prefer it.

People find out about it by word of mouth, unlike other things which get enormous amount of publicity, explanation, and promotion by the diocese.
It is meaningless to quote low percentages of Catholics who supposedly are “choosing” the EF, because the OF is the only form most Catholics believe is permitted since Vatican II, the only one Catholic school children are taught about.

Of those few who do hear about the Latin Mass, a fair number of young adults choose to go there sometimes or all the time. Those who do not hear about it, do not have the ability to choose it.

 

[Augustinian]

People find out about it by word of mouth, unlike other things which get enormous amount of publicity, explanation, and promotion by the diocese.

It is meaningless to quote low percentages of Catholics who supposedly are “choosing” the EF, because the OF is the only form most Catholics believe is permitted since Vatican II, the only one Catholic school children are taught about.

How much of an effort in promoting Latin Mass should be done?

Most Catholics prefer to attend their local parish church, where they know the people, and the people know them, they know what pew to sit it, where to park their car, and how long the mass will be.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

People find out about it by word of mouth, unlike other things which get enormous amount of publicity, explanation, and promotion by the diocese.

It is meaningless to quote low percentages of Catholics who supposedly are “choosing” the EF, because the OF is the only form most Catholics believe is permitted since Vatican II, the only one Catholic school children are taught about.

How much of an effort in promoting Latin Mass should be done?

Most Catholics prefer to attend their local parish church, where they know the people, and the people know them, they know what pew to sit it, where to park their car, and how long the mass will be.

I would suggest mild promotion, on occasion. It would be helpful if a diocesan newspaper mentioned, "here is an option that Pope Benedict said encouraging things about; some Catholics who tried it find they appreciate it; and it is available at St. John, Sunday 10 AM. It would be good if a Catholic school or religious ed program learned a little about it, and attended one EF Mass, maybe every other year.

Schools currently do study the ethnic or religious practices of various peoples, even where those customs are more in the past than present. Most schools would have no problem with inviting an Eastern Catholic priest to offer Divine Liturgy.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Indeed. Quebec also has a special antipathy to Latin and anything pre-Conciliar on account of the Jansenist/clericalist leanings of the pre-Conciliar Church in Quebec and the subsequent “quiet revolution” of the early '60s which coincided with Vatican II time-wise. Those who didn’t bail from the Church at that point, fully embraced the changes of the Council to the point of hostility for anything pre-Conciliar. There is a mild thaw… a slight resurgence in interest in Gregorian chant for instance, in areas where it can be heard (I belong to a schola based in Sherbrooke, Quebec). But beyond that there is very little appetite for the TLM in Quebec.

My time in Quebec and the reason for my being there were quite an eye-opener for me, as I dealt with issues that made manifest the horrors to which you refer.

I could readily sympathise with anyone there who wanted to be disassociated with the Church before the Council. Tragic. Beyond tragic.

 

[twf]

My very Protestant grandmother used to claim that Protestant missionaries would “disappear” if they ventured into certain parts of Quebec during those years. I put no stock in such tales, but the Quebecois Church was definitely troubled.

 

[OraLabora]

From what I have read, and the few visits there, there is not much appetite for the Ordinary Form Mass, or any form Mass in Quebec now.

The local Church hierarchy of the time have nobody to blame but themselves for this sorry state of affairs.

 

[ProVobis]

How much of an effort in promoting Latin Mass should be done?

Maybe they should be asking where and not how much. I hate to bring them up but the SSPX seem to have no problem WHERE to put their efforts. They seem to have deep enough pockets to show for it.

 

[otjm]

I think that a careful reading of Summorum Pontificum has within it at least a partial answer to your question. The whole of the document indicates, fairly clearly, that the call for, and the need for the EF is to come from “the bottom, up”. It is the laity, not the Church, which needs to promote the EF. It is not the duty of the diocese to promote it, nor, taking it down one level, is it the duty of the parish to promote it.

Nor is Summorum Pontificum written for the young; it is written for those as noted in Art. 5: “In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists,”.

Prior to setting for the articles, Pope Benedict noted: “In some regions, however, not a few of the faithful continued to be attached with such love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms which had deeply shaped their culture and spirit…”

The short of it is that the Church has no duty or requirement to promote the EF; only to provide it as per the articles of SP.

That does not mean that the laity cannot promote it; but it will have to come (by an sense of logic) from those who already favor it.

 

[commenter]

Nor is Summorum Pontificum written for the young; it is written for those as noted in Art. 5: “In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists,”.

Pope Benedict noted: “In some regions, however, not a few of the faithful continued to be attached with such love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms which had deeply shaped their culture and spirit…”

The Church often adapts to unanticipated needs and opportunities. If some young adults show an interest in something that we did not expect, we try to respond to that interest, not be locked into our earlier expectations.

If, for instance, 5 out of 10 young people who are exposed to the EF like it, maybe we should expose more young people to it, rather than murmuring against them for throwing off our expectations.

 

[otjm]

Part of the problem with this conversation is that there are implications all over, but no hard facts.

What is needed is survey of all parishes which have an EF, to include a reasonable modeling of age groups and numbers. Otherwise, we are just having a conversation repleate with anecdotes and opinions. CARA is eminently capable of doing this; perhaps those who favor the EF can get together and pool funds to have a study done. That would certaily provide clarity rather than opinion.

And again, the bottom line is the Church has followed SP, and has made the EF available.

There have been charges that “the bishops are still blockading the EF”. I await one single example, rather than a repeat of unbased charges. There seems to be a sense of isolation, which is entirely understandable when one is a small minority. However, rather than rail against that reality, it is up to the parishes which have the EF, including those who go to it, to get the word out and show that there is an overflowing and overwhelming response.

In too many areas, it appears that there is little growth; certainly not to the point where cities with one EF parish (that is, those which have several Sunday EF Masses as well as weekday EF’s) are so full that they need to start the EF at other parishes. The point being that it is widely understood that a parish with an EF Mass draws from other surrounding parishes. That in itself is not going to be highly conducive to young families from other parishes surrounding, to doing much more than attending Mass. And that is not what a parish is about; Mass is central, but our faith does not end with Ite, missa est.

I can just about guarantee that most, if not almost all dioceses are not going to start a “road show” of the EF. The vast majority of parishes in the US are the OF, and dioceses are already challenged to staff priests in them. City parishes which have dwindling membership are being shut down in consolidations, partly driven by the cost of keeping a parish afloat, and partly due to fewer priests than parishes.

A further point is that many parishes which have an EF, have that Mass in the afternoon. Why not replace one of the morning OF Masses? Because the greater majority want the OF. And I await a “head count” of how many attend each OF and how many the EF. The numbers should be enlightening.

I am not in the least faulting anyone, whatsoever, who appreciates the EF and wants to share it. It is the enthusiasm for the EF which keeps it alive. If they want to have others share that enthusiasm, it is up to them to do so. The Church provides the EF when there is “a stable group”. Nothing, coming out of Rome, even remotely suggests that each diocese should be going out to try and create those stable groups.