Franciscan University

[graceandglory]

That is syncretism.

You know what… I was vulnerable with you and gave you personal information about my family’s conversion story. Kindness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You are not a kind person. Be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Just because YOU don’t PREFER something, doesn’t mean it’s WRONG. God made us all different. Frankly, I don’t PREFER people who are mean.

 

[Harpazo]

Honestly, we should be more watchful of you. You are a person who has left the catholic church. We need not follow your wisdom lest we also be led astray. Thank God Almighty for the Holy Catholic Church who guides us.

You should know that your claims here are you basically saying that you are wiser than the last three popes and countless bishops who have all approved of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I am not sure if you realize that you are claiming this for yourself. Do you realize that you are claiming to understand Jesus better than them all? I suppose you know better. hmmph!

Why did you leave the Catholic Church by the way?

Do you really think that if the RCC really needed these charisms, they wouldn’t have become dormant after the 1st century (as the are allegedly said to have done)? Let’s be intellectually honest here. These new “charismatic” styles of worship are little older than 50 years old, maybe. That does not raise any eyebrows? This is the Johnny-come-lately to the liturgical scene in the RCC. Why accept it so willingly?

I, like Mickey, am no longer RC. I am glad that I do not have to worry about these movements as an Orthodox. I’ll let him tell you his reasons. But perhaps you might want to talk with him about it privately?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Too much stink is being made about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. While I am no fan of it myself (hyper-emotionalism has no place in my life), it’s something that helps bridge the gap with those who are more comfortable in such an environment and that allows them to worship God without having to attach themselves to a Protestant group.

Having said that, I think that things like speaking in gibbersh and “slaying in the spirit” should be beyond anyone who lives in the 21st century. I also firmly balk at any sort of faith healing. While I’m not about to deny the existence of miracles, I think it’s better if we live in the real world and become a little more critical of outlandish claims. We don’t live in the middle ages anymore.

 

[Mickey]

Honestly, we should be more watchful of you.

Your ad hominems are not necessary.

You are a person who has left the catholic church.

I have come home.

You should know that your claims here are you basically saying that you are wiser than the last three popes

I am not submissive to a pope. All things should be tested.

Do you realize that you are claiming to understand Jesus better than them all?

I do not claim to be “wiser” than anyone.

 

[Mickey]

Just because YOU don’t PREFER something, doesn’t mean it’s WRONG.

I would venture to say that the majority of conservative Catholics do not approve of the charismatic movement. The traditionalist Catholics definitely do not approve of it. And the Orthodox Church warns us of this non-patristic abberation. Heck, the better part of the protestants are wary of this odd movement.

It is not patristic. It is not part of Sacred Tradition. It is not Biblical.

It is not just** me**! Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept.

 

[Mickey]

I am glad that I do not have to worry about these movements as an Orthodox.

Amen, my brother in Christ.

But perhaps you might want to talk with him about it privately?

Yes. Anyone who is interested in my particular journey, can contact me privately.

 

[Mickey]

Too much stink is being made about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. While I am no fan of it myself (hyper-emotionalism has no place in my life), it’s something that helps bridge the gap with those who are more comfortable in such an environment and that allows them to worship God without having to attach themselves to a Protestant group.

It seems that what you are saying is: It is okay to attach some extreme non-patristic protestant aspects to the Catholic Church to make people more comfortable.

Having said that, I think that things like speaking in gibbersh and “slaying in the spirit” should be beyond anyone who lives in the 21st century. I also firmly balk at any sort of faith healing. While I’m not about to deny the existence of miracles, I think it’s better if we live in the real world and become a little more critical of outlandish claims.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

I am not sure what an ad hominem is, but I will say that I said we should be watchful of you because you are a person who was once catholic and who left the church! Call my statement whatever you want, I will call it a plain fact and something we here (hello this is a catholic forum) should be aware of. We Catholics have the Magisterium, which I am assuming you have rejected. We are led by a Living Church that is guided in it’s decisions by the Holy Spirit.

When I said that you are claiming to be wiser than the magisterium, I was pointing out that you left the church because you erroneously thought that you knew better than the Living Breathing Infallible Church of Jesus Christ. Be humble and realize that you have fallen away due to your own pride.

Pride: You think you know better than the decisions of three popes, councils, countless bishops and yeah, Hello, that is pride. You are like an ant telling a person that you are so smart. Sir, you claim to be smarter than the church.

I am not claiming to be smarter than the church, you are. I am submitting to the Church. Big difference between the way you and I approach truth. By the way, this is what Catholics believe. HELLO, you are on a catholic forum here.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

And so, here is what the Catholic Church has said about the Charismatic Renewal.

religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm#Popes_Statements:

catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html

zenit.org/article-8271?l=english

By the way, I am at a loss to understand how you can come onto a catholic forum and preach against three popes, cardinals and countless bishops. LOL sir, who do you think you are ?!!!

 

[graceandglory]

I would venture to say that the majority of conservative Catholics do not approve of the charismatic movement. The traditionalist Catholics definitely do not approve of it. And the Orthodox Church warns us of this non-patristic abberation. Heck, the better part of the protestants are wary of this odd movement.

It is not patristic. It is not part of Sacred Tradition. It is not Biblical.

It is not just** me**! Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept.

It is biblical. The Pope approves. You are not the Pope. I would venture to say that the majority of charismatics don’t prefer the TLM. You can’t disagree with the Magisterium and then say that you have the truth. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church doesn’t work that way.

That said, there ARE things that are wrong ON BOTH SIDES. And generally I feel safer on the traditional side. I have fought the pentecostal movement for 15 yrs. But it’s not all wrong.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

It is the same private interpretation problem that all who leave the church have. We need the church, we are guided not by ourselves but by a church that has been given the authority to proclaim the Truth.

I can tell you why the church believes this charismatic renewal to be biblical if you want. That can be discussed, but not without humility. Because the basic truth is this: even if you do not understand what the church teaches, that does not give you the right to say that She is wrong. What humility would say is: " I fail to understand how this is really from the Holy Spirit, will you please explain it me Mother Church?"

But never disgree with the Church, that is going way beyond where human beings should dare trod.

oh disobediant children…

 

[OmegaSupreme]

It seems that what you are saying is: It is okay to attach some extreme non-patristic protestant aspects to the Catholic Church to make people more comfortable.

No, what I am saying is that it’s no more wrong than what has been done for Eastern Christians or what’s currently being done for Anglicans to help preserve their tradition.

Granted, it’s not all entirely the same, but as long as such a movement doesn’t lead people away from the Church or introduce heresies into Church teaching, then I don’t see what the big deal is. Like I said, I’m not a big fan of it myself. But I’m not going to tell others how they should or shouldn’t worship God as long as it remains within the bounds of the Magisterium. I’ll just hide myself away in the corner with the others who prefer to stay away from hyper-emotionalism.

 

[brigantine]

It is the same private interpretation problem that all who leave the church have. We need the church, we are guided not by ourselves but by a church that has been given the authority to proclaim the Truth.

I can tell you why the church believes this charismatic renewal to be biblical if you want. That can be discussed, but not without humility. Because the basic truth is this: even if you do not understand what the church teaches, that does not give you the right to say that She is wrong. What humility would say is: " I fail to understand how this is really from the Holy Spirit, will you please explain it me Mother Church?"

But never disgree with the Church, that is going way beyond where human beings should dare trod.

oh disobediant children…

I just cant see how you can talk about humility required in others and then post without any? You may not feel this is a big deal but for others it has caused pain you just don’t understand. Seeing the Church you grew up in change in ways that can not logically be reconciled with Tradition is painful. Having others who love the new Catholic Church mock and lecture you on humility just adds to the pain.

I have seen and talked to literally hundreds of former Catholics that are now Orthodox because of the changes imposed after V-II. Many including myself long to come home but are afraid that the home we knew is not there.

I will continue to pray and ask for the Lords guidance!

 

[brigantine]

No, what I am saying is that it’s no more wrong than what has been done for Eastern Christians or what’s currently being done for Anglicans to help preserve their tradition.

Many of the Eastern and Anglican Traditions the RC Church alllows for are Traditions from the begining. What is the Eastern Church does the RC Church allow that is a modern invention? I’m not up on Eastern Catholisism but I’m assuming it is very close to Eastern Orthodoxy. If I’m wrong here then I’m sorry.

I just fail to see anything written by early Church Fathers that supports this charismatic kind of worship. This stuff is really out there so I would expect at least a mention of it in Eusubius’ History of the Church. I don’t recall any of it though!

 

[Mickey]

I am not sure what an ad hominem is

Personal insults.

Call my statement whatever you want

I already did. It is an Ad hominem.

Be humble and realize that you have fallen away due to your own pride.

I have come home. And you are way off subject.

You are like an ant telling a person that you are so smart.

I did not realize that ants were so intelligent.

HELLO, you are on a catholic forum here.

Hello? This forum is for everybody. Are you are finished with your lessons on what you think is the definition of pride? Do you have anything else to offer to the subject thread aside from insults.

 

[Mickey]

It is biblical. The Pope approves.

Gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit, and the other odd mimicking of the protestant charismatic revival are** not** biblical and **not **approved by any Roman Catholic pope.

You can’t disagree with the Magisterium and then say that you have the truth.

Did the pope declare something about gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit and the other oddities with an ex-cathedra statement? I have never seen this? Has the magisterium come forth with statements on these innovations? Is there anything from the Church Fathers?

I have fought the pentecostal movement for 15 yrs. But it’s not all wrong.

You fight it, yet you agree with some of it? Strange dichotomy.

 

[Mickey]

It is the same private interpretation problem that all who leave the church have. We need the church, we are guided not by ourselves but by a church that has been given the authority to proclaim the Truth.

And the Roman Catholic Church has given birth to this protestant charismatic movement. It is a strange enigma.

 

[Mickey]

Granted, it’s not all entirely the same, but as long as such a movement doesn’t lead people away from the Church or introduce heresies into Church teaching, then I don’t see what the big deal is.

Many groups, (including many Roman Catholic that I know), believe that the charismatic movement of the Catholic Church which began in 1967—has introduced heresy.

But I’m not going to tell others how they should or shouldn’t worship God as long as it remains within the bounds of the Magisterium. I’ll just hide myself away in the corner with the others who prefer to stay away from hyper-emotionalism.

I’m not telling others how to worship. God gave us free will and we can use it. I am simply questioning this new innovation that was introduced to the Church in 1967. It is non-patristic and non-biblical. I started this thread because I was surprised to see it at Fransiscan University.

 

[Mickey]

I just cant see how you can talk about humility required in others and then post without any? You may not feel this is a big deal but for others it has caused pain you just don’t understand. Seeing the Church you grew up in change in ways that can not logically be reconciled with Tradition is painful. Having others who love the new Catholic Church mock and lecture you on humility just adds to the pain.

Yes. There is much irony.

 

[Mickey]

I just fail to see anything written by early Church Fathers that supports this charismatic kind of worship. This stuff is really out there so I would expect at least a mention of it in Eusubius’ History of the Church. I don’t recall any of it though!

There is no patristic support for these innovations.