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Mickey
Guest
I am hearing that Franciscan University is gradually adapting to charismatic Catholicism in the style of the protestant pentecostalist movement.
Is this the case?
Is this the case?
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Joe_5859
Guest
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the question. If anything, Franciscan University is less “charismatic” than it used to be 15 or 20 years ago.
Whatever the case, it certainly isn’t Protestant.
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Mickey
Guest
I have read that people at Fransican charismatic “masses” are holding their hands in the air, speaking in tongues, laughing hysterically, going into seizure like states, and dropping to the ground as they are “slain in the spirit”–all of this to the backdrop of contemporary protestant pop/rock music.
It certainly sounds protestant to me.
What is going on there?
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MercyMia
Guest
Protestant and Charismatic are not mutually exclusive terms. There are many Protestant churches that would thumb their noses at hands in the air during prayer (my husband grew up in the church of Christ and they would have viewed this as sorcery).
You can be Catholic and charismatic…recognizing that the Holy Spirit gives us wonderful gifts. But like all things, it has a time and place in worship and is never to take away from the reverence of the mass and the Eucharist.
The Catholic church existed before the Pentecostal denomination …so if anything, Pentecostals are just an exaggerated version of the Catholic Charismatic.
I think Franciscan has a reputation of being on the up and up… so its probably nothing to worry about.
You can be Catholic and charismatic…recognizing that the Holy Spirit gives us wonderful gifts. But like all things, it has a time and place in worship and is never to take away from the reverence of the mass and the Eucharist.
The Catholic church existed before the Pentecostal denomination …so if anything, Pentecostals are just an exaggerated version of the Catholic Charismatic.
I think Franciscan has a reputation of being on the up and up… so its probably nothing to worry about.
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Mickey
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I meant to say protestant pentecostalist movement. Personally, I believe that the charismatic movement is inspired by a spirit–but not the Holy Spirit. If it is true that the Charismatic trademarks of tongues and fainting and convulsions is becoming more prevalent in the Catholic Church, I would be deeply saddened.
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MercyMia
Guest
I understand you Mickey.
In my view, the gift of tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit (the bible tells us this)…but it is not a gift that everyone will have. Some have certain gifts, others do not. I tend to agree with you about the spirit in the Pentecostal church potentially not being a gift of the Holy Spirit because everyone who is Pentecostal acquires it…with some churches even making it a requirement to join! I agree some may be either delusional, wanting to fit in, or demonic. When one speaks in tongues, there is always the potential that they are saying blasphemy against Christ since they don’t really know what they are saying. It is a gift that needs to be handled with care. That is why the guidance of the Church is so important. We must test everything.
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Mickey
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St Paul tells us that it is the least of gifts. Also, in Biblical times, there had to be a true interpreter. Furthermore, none of the Church Fathers tell us about this gift being present in the Church after Apostolic times. I have a hard time believing that it suddenly reappeared with the Charismatic movement of the early 1900’s!
I believe it is demonic.
Indeed!
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Scoobyshme
Guest
I think what is really happening is an emotional thing, not a spiritual thing. The Charismatic movement gets everyone all hyped up emotionally, but that’s it. It doesn’t lead anyone to do anything (serve others, feed the poor, etc.) from what I’ve seen. It’s strictly how emotionally high you can get. That’s why I jokingly call them the charismaniacs.
True spirituality leads one to serve God as His instrument in building up the Kingdom of God. It doesn’t lead one to flop around and go home saying, “Boy didn’t THAT feel good?! And, wasn’t THAT exciting?!” The Holy Spirit most often works like the gentle breeze, not a hurricane.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI disagree. Both have affirmed the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement.
I should state that I would definitely not classify myself as charismatic. But I have met enough people who embrace such a spirituality to realize that we should not rashly judge a caricatured version of what it is. Don’t get me wrong, I know there are people out there who do such things for the emotional experience and who even look down on anyone who is not charismatic. But I’m a firm believer that we do not judge a group based on the worst of the bunch, but rather the best of the bunch. That’s how I would prefer people judge Catholics. Better to judge us based on Mother Teresa that the clergy abuse scandals.
In any case, we need to be cautious about using “Protestant” (or “Protestant Pentecostalism”) as a descriptive modifier. I think we can too easily fall into the trap of using such terms to insinuate that something is obviously not Catholic. It can turn into a pick-and-choose scenario. Obviously, we have much in common with various Protestant groups and some differences. We should not use such terms as a convenient way to write off what we don’t like. Especially when it’s something we’ve only heard of from afar and never even seen for ourselves.
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Mickey
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Do not be deceived my friend. It is very spiritually damaging. It is mediumistic in nature. Charismatics think they are receiving great gifts and healings and being baptized in the Holy Spirit—but in reality they are channeling something evil. We must remember that Satan can appear as an angel of light.
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Mickey
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That is unfortunate. Do you have proof?
Nothing is being set forth or judged as a caricature.
The best of the charismatic bunch? Explain.
That is where the charismatic movement originated. It certainly did not come from the Church Fathers.
It is a trap. And it is **not **Catholic.
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rtconstant
Guest
Just want to jump in here real quick, the ECF’s did make infrequent mention of the use of tongues. However, when they did speak of it, they placed it in highly restricted guidelines. One, the only version of the gift they recognized was the speaking of a human language that the speaker did not know. Second, when spoken the speaker must be aware of what he/she is saying, if not then its origin is suspect. Third when spoken in the public arena, which was its preferred place, those listening should know what is being said either by their own, or another’s interpretation. If no interpretation is present then its origin was to be suspect.
As to collapsing and the laughing hysteria being gifts of the Holy Spirit, I’m not sure there is any evidence ancient or otherwise for those. Though if that is incorrect I’d be interested in any sources.
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Mickey
Guest
I am aware of the “proper” form of tongues aside from the common gibberish of today. Nevertheless, do you have any links to these Church Father quotes. I would like to read them.
Correct. And I am wondering why this ocurrs at Fransican U.
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rtconstant
Guest
Well two that I know off the top of my head are:
St. John Crysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians
and
Augustine in his Homilies on first Epistle of John.
Sorry don’t have links on hand, but you can probably look up some on google based on the above. Its at least a start. To be honest though the ECF’s really don’t speak often about it, so it would seem to have not be a very frequently used gift.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I am a Charismatic Catholic, and you are way off base here, Mickey. The experience of the spiritual gifts is about a) personal conversion, and b) love for others. It is true that some manifestations of this will lead to a focus on the self, but that is also true of any form of pietism or devotion to God. If we are truly devoted to God, however, and not just “our idea of God”, then God will lead us to love and serve others.
I live in a small community of charismatics in Detroit. Our community is devoted to serving the poor, educating disadvantaged children, and healing racial tensions. I fail to see how we are “channeling something evil”, and it seems clear to me that you are painting with an extraordinarily broad brush.
It is one thing to discuss doctrinal issues about the nature of the spiritual gifts, but it is quite another thing to hurl accusations. I would suggest you stick to the former.
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Mickey
Guest
Thanks RT!
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Mickey
Guest
Before you continue to jump down my throat—I will clarify. This thread is about charismatic Catholics who ape the pentecostalist movement (as I have read about Fransiscan U.).
Perhaps you are a charismatic by a different definition. Let me ask you some questions:
Do you speak in tongues?
Do people in your community get “slain in the spirit”?
Do you use the phrase "baptised in the spirit?
Are there instances of uncontollable laughing, crying, or seizure-like twitching?
Are there instances of making animal sounds like barking dogs or oinking pigs?
Are there pop/rock bands at your services singing and playing protestant hymns?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Hi Mickey,
You’re right that I was a bit aggressive, and I apologize. As you know, people don’t like to be misrepresented, which was my perception.
Do you speak in tongues? Yes.
Do people in your community get “slain in the spirit”? Rarely.
Do you use the phrase "baptised in the spirit? Yes.
Are there instances of uncontollable laughing, crying, or seizure-like twitching? No. Although I wouldn’t claim that God couldn’t work in such a way. (The twitching, I will admit, is a bit bizarre.)
Are there instances of making animal sounds like barking dogs or oinking pigs? Uh, no. Neither is this common in Pentecostal sects, nor charismatic circles anywhere. I would be shocked if it occurred at Steubenville.
Are there pop/rock bands at your services? No. We do play guitar, piano, and occasionally drums. But we have found that rock songs tend to focus on the self, as opposed to God. Still, many rock songs can draw a person into worship.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Mickey, have you ever been to Franciscan University? Have you ever met a “charismatic” before? I’m interested to know where you’re getting your information and why you believe as you do.
Here are some links to what the recent popes have said in regards to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement (CCRM):
In regards to my “best of the bunch” comment, I simply mean that we don’t let a few people who may be wrongly incorporating the CCRM into their spiritual life speak for the group. Rather, we should look to people like Ralph Martin or Al and Patti Mansfield and see what they have to say about it. They have been involved in the movement for a long time and they are certainly not heretics.
I should also clarify that there is a difference between “speaking in tongues” (a la Acts 2) and the “inexpressible groanings” of the Holy Spirit (a la Romans 8:26). Many people (even those in the CCRM) confuse the two, but they are different. Most of what people observe in the CCRM is in the latter category.
Here are some links to what the recent popes have said in regards to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement (CCRM):
- Address of Pope Benedict XVI to Participants in a Meeting Organized by the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (October 31, 2008)
- Message of John Paul II to the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (November 7, 2002)
- Message of John Paul II to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (April 24, 2000)
- Address of John Paul II to the Participants in the International Conference for Catholic Charismatic Leaders (October 30, 1998)
- Message of John Paul II to the Participants in the 8th International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (June 1, 1998)
- Address of John Paul II to the Council of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office (March 14, 1992)
- Address of John Paul II to the Participants of the Sixth International Assembly of the Charismatic Renewal (May 15, 1987)
In regards to my “best of the bunch” comment, I simply mean that we don’t let a few people who may be wrongly incorporating the CCRM into their spiritual life speak for the group. Rather, we should look to people like Ralph Martin or Al and Patti Mansfield and see what they have to say about it. They have been involved in the movement for a long time and they are certainly not heretics.
I should also clarify that there is a difference between “speaking in tongues” (a la Acts 2) and the “inexpressible groanings” of the Holy Spirit (a la Romans 8:26). Many people (even those in the CCRM) confuse the two, but they are different. Most of what people observe in the CCRM is in the latter category.
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Mickey
Guest
I have met Catholics who were influenced by Fransciscan University. I was flabbergasted because they were acting like pentecostalists. They kept talking about being “slain in the spirit” and they brought guitar music to the RC Church I was attending at that time. I also know a priest who used to teach there.
Some of it first hand by aquaintances–and some by reading.
If they are affirming the same “charisms” that the pentecostalists are practicing–then it is disturbing. But I suspect these popes are not referring to this.
[The “team” on stage: Father Michael Scanlon, Father John Gordon, Dr. Joanne Storm, Sister Sarah Burdick, Sister Katherine Caldwell, Ralph Martin, Bert Ghezzi, Al Mansfield and Mark Nehrbas, sang along, raised hands in Pentecostal fashion; some sang with eyes clenched shut as if in the grip of some deep emotion. It reminded me more of the 700 Club than anything recognizably Catholic.]
traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a032htFusionCatholicism_Vennari.htm
In the same article it goes on to say:
[Al Mansfield spoke on “We Walk by Faith, Not By Sight”, telling the heartbreaking story of his New Orleans home being destroyed in Hurricane Katrina. In the process, he urged everyone, “do not leave here without getting baptized in the Holy Spirit.”]
Is our first baptism not enough?
Inexpressable groanings? Is this the passage used to justify the type of tongues that I see as gibberish?
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