Franciscan University

[Mickey]

I think that one of the main problems that is causing this disagreement is that Mickey does not seem to acknowledge that protestants are christians and have received the Holy Spirit. They also beleive that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior.

This we Catholics acknowledge as fact. His whole premise, that protestants can’t possibly bring anything good to the table, is basically saying that they don’t have the Holy Spirit.

I have said nothing of the sort. The Holy Spirit blows where it wills. Here is what I know:

The following is not part of Sacred Tradition or the writings of the Church Fathers:

Gibberish tongues
Baptism of the Holy Spirit (outside of the sacrament of baptism/chrismation)
Slain in the spirit
twitching, barking, laughing (these are in fact signs of a demonic spirit)
and much more…

And so when we test these things, what do we see? From what source does it come?

You have acknowledged that you have borrowed and adapted practices of the protestant pentecostals into your “Catholic” faith. And so it seems that you have watered down the Sacred Tradition with the fruit of a non-sacramental protestant charismatic revivalist sect.

I rest my case.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

I am sorry that you don’t believe in what we have experienced. I have been so blessed by being a part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal however. In fact, I have never had so much love in me (the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love). Praise Jesus who lavishes His Holy Spirit in powerful ways, in life changing ways.

Have you ever been open to being filled with the Holy Spirit? Maybe if you were, you would understand what all the hub-bub is about.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

You may have not liked my above answer so I thought I would try to say this in a more theological way:

As you may already know, the Catholic Church makes pronouncments about things. They can say something is worthy of participation, something should be changed, something should be rejected. I think you know that the Catholic Church has this authority (I am assuming that you are catholic).

An example would be Medjugorje. The church has not yet made a formal declaration for the faithful concerning this. This proves that the church does indeed look into matters and weighs everything before giving us, the faithful, due guidance.

She has also done this with Charismatic Renewal. If you would like to know what the Catholic Church says, all you need to do is look here on the internet. It is approved, it is approved.

If you disagree with this approval, that is another matter. I would encourage that you followed the Church and Her guidance, even though you may not understand.

And this even more so because you are tending to label something the Church has looked into and then formally approved as “demonic.” That course of action may be attributing the actions of Jesus Christ to beelzebub. And you don’t want to commit that sin right?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Uh…I just did. I’ll give you one more example.

The egg at Pascha signifies emerging from the tomb–the Resurrection—and we procalim Christ is Risen!

Speaking in gibberish tongues signifies the early 20th century charismatic protestant revivalist movement.

Giving examples is not explaining a difference, but rather *explicating *it. So the egg at Pascha and the Nativity tree are good, the gift of tongues (i.e. glossolalia) bad. Why? What principle do we use to distinguish? Christ gives a couple principles: “By their fruits you shall know them” and “He who is not against me is for me”. Do you object to those principles?

If not, then why unilaterally declare the gift of tongues bad? Why not simply express that you do not see how this could be from God, but you do not know it is not? Why not consider the devotion of the brethren who do these things, on a case by case basis, and look for its fruits?

The Church’s response, in acknowledging the Charismatic movement, is largely on the basis of Christ’s direct teaching. They are to be commended for not despising what they may not understand. (Please look into Father Cantalamessa’s writings on the subject, by the way).

Are you asking me to tell you where it is written that speaking gibberish tongues, being slain in the spirit, being baptised in the spirit, and rock/pop music during worship are considered heresies?

Yes, please do.

 

[Mickey]

Have you ever been open to being filled with the Holy Spirit? Maybe if you were, you would understand what all the hub-bub is about.

Hub-bub? No. I do not believe in hub-bub. Not only am I open to being filled with the Holy Spirit, but I am filled with the Holy Spirit: at my baptism, chrismation, every time I receive Holy Communion, at my marriage, during the sacrament of the anointing of the sick, etc. The Orthodox Church is a sacramental Church.

The unfortunate fusion of charismatic revivalism into the Catholic Church is an innovation that I believe must be resisted amongst Catholics.

 

[Mickey]

(I am assuming that you are catholic).

Never assume.

An example would be Medjugorje. The church has not yet made a formal declaration for the faithful concerning this. This proves that the church does indeed look into matters and weighs everything before giving us, the faithful, due guidance.

My understanding is that Medjugorje has been shown to be false. And it is not mandatory for Catholics to accept **any **apparition.

She has also done this with Charismatic Renewal. If you would like to know what the Catholic Church says, all you need to do is look here on the internet. It is approved, it is approved.

I have looked. But it seems that the Popes who have recoginized this “movement” are not talking about the same things that **occur **in this “movement”. The language used is general and vague. I cannot find where the Pope is accepting rock/pop music in the services, being “slain in the Spirit”, baptism of the Holy Spirit (outside of the sacraments of baptism and chrismation), or speaking gibberish tongues.

If you disagree with this approval, that is another matter. I would encourage that you followed the Church and Her guidance, even though you may not understand.

If I was still Catholic, I can guarantee you that I would be resisting this “movement”. As a Catholic, you are not called to blind obedience to something that is way off the mark. I do not recall the Pope infallibly declaring ex-cathedra that the charismatic movement is valid. None of the Popes approved of the odd protestant charismatic practices that have been adopted by certain segments of the Catholic Church…and if they did…they would be wrong.

And this even more so because you are tending to label something the Church has looked into and then formally approved as “demonic.” .

When I see a priest uttering, “shamana, shamana, shamana, shamana” over the pounding of rock/pop music during procession with the monstrance…then I can be certain it is demonic. I believe any Pope would agree.

That course of action may be attributing the actions of Jesus Christ to beelzebub. And you don’t want to commit that sin right?

Satan can appear as an angel of light.

Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Mickey]

So the egg at Pascha and the Nativity tree are good, the gift of tongues (i.e. glossolalia) bad. Why?

The former are symbols of the rich and beautiful theology of the apostolic faith. The latter are called the least of gifts in Scripture, are absent in the Church Father’s teachings, do not have valid interpreters, is nothing but gibberish…shall I go on?

Christ gives a couple principles: “By their fruits you shall know them” and “He who is not against me is for me”. Do you object to those principles?

Of couse I do not object to these principles. There are countless principles in the Sacred Scriptures.

If not, then why unilaterally declare the gift of tongues bad?

The gifts of tongues in Sacred Scripture are blessed. Today’s uninterpreted gibberish is bad.

Why not consider the devotion of the brethren who do these things, on a case by case basis, and look for its fruits?

The holy fathers of the Church are virtually silent when it comes to the practices that you have adopted from the protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

They are to be commended for not despising what they may not understand.

We are to despise no one. Refusing to accept heterodox praxis is not despising someone. You and Flame of Christ seem to think that because I am opposed to this movement—I despise you in some way. We are called to love our neighbor. I may believe that the charismatic movement is terribly disordered–but I do not despise you.

(Please look into Father Cantalamessa’s writings on the subject, by the way).

I am not in agreement with his writngs.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Is this only regarding on-campus activities? I happen to be attending Franciscan via Distance Learning and I can assure you the curriculum and faculty have been quite traditional and orthodox.

 

[Joe_5859]

Is this only regarding on-campus activities? I happen to be attending Franciscan via Distance Learning and I can assure you the curriculum and faculty have been quite traditional and orthodox.

Mickey is speaking primarily about the monthly “Festivals of Praise” on campus. Some of us do not share his appraisal of those prayer meetings. The fact that FUS’s teaching remains firmly orthodox seems to belie the possibility that the Charismatic elements are demonic in origin. If that were the case, I’d suspect their theology to be pretty heretical. Lex orandi, Lex credendi and all.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey is speaking primarily about the monthly “Festivals of Praise” on campus.

Truth mixed with lies, is not truth at all.

Lex orandi, Lex credendi indeed!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Truth mixed with lies, is not truth at all.

Lex orandi, Lex credendi indeed!

You have experienced a specific demonic incident at Franciscan?

 

[Mickey]

You have experienced a specific demonic incident at Franciscan?

The protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

 

[Harpazo]

The protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

I agree. I went to Ave Maria University last year, while it was a great school with wonderful people, I do not understand why a large segment of the student body openly endorsed it. Thanks be to God it was not to the extent that things are at Steubenville. They would have guitar masses at 5.00 PM daily with Protestant hymns. Their Sunday evening Masses were complete with guitars and bongos, singing out “Praise and Worship” music. I don’t know why I did not just walk out when I went (which was only twice). I should have.

But I don’t have to worry about that any more. I am planning on returning to AMU in the spring, but will be worshiping at an Orthodox church.

I sometimes here proponents of this say “it’s a great way to reach out to the young people. it’s milk before meat!” Uhhh, no. If we do not push people to grow into better people, but bow down to their wishes and lifestyle, we are harming them. I am incredibly thankful for Orthodoxy and how it really demands holiness. This is not in a legalistic sense, but it pushes you out of your comfort zone and compels you to better yourself. This may mean depriving yourself of certain things in order to allow God to fill in the space of things you’ve given up.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Mickey]

I sometimes hear proponents of this say “it’s a great way to reach out to the young people. it’s milk before meat!” Uhhh, no. If we do not push people to grow into better people, but bow down to their wishes and lifestyle, we are harming them. I am incredibly thankful for Orthodoxy and how it really demands holiness. This is not in a legalistic sense, but it pushes you out of your comfort zone and compels you to better yourself. This may mean depriving yourself of certain things in order to allow God to fill in the space of things you’ve given up.

In Christ,
Andrew

Amen Andrew.

Did you ever read the book by Fr Seraphim Rose titled, "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future"? There is a long section about the charismatic movement.

He was way ahead of his time.

 

[Joe_5859]

Not to stoke the fires of debate any more o), but “Praise and Worship” music is hardly the worst musical problem the Church is facing.

The P&W songs (even the gasp Protestant ones) are usually more theologically sound than anything coming out of OCP or GIA, which is the main source of liturgical music for the vast majority of Catholic parishes that I have ever been to. At least most P&W songs are addressed to God rather than maybe being about God, but usually just us singing about ourselves (“We are called, we are chosen, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we”).

And I say this as one who is not really a fan of P&W. I much prefer the more traditional hymns. But if it’s a choice between “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High” and “Sing a New Church”, I think the choice is obvious.

 

[Mickey]

Not to stoke the fires of debate any more o), but “Praise and Worship” music is hardly the worst musical problem the Church is facing.

It adds a coal to the fire.

The P&W songs (even the gasp Protestant ones) are usually more theologically sound than anything coming out of OCP or GIA, which is the main source of liturgical music for the vast majority of Catholic parishes that I have ever been to.

Ouch!

And I say this as one who is not really a fan of P&W. I much prefer the more traditional hymns. But if it’s a choice between “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High” and “Sing a New Church”, I think the choice is obvious.

Perhaps your Church should listen to Pope Benedict XVI. He holds Gregorian chant as the standard.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

I would say if you see poor music or whatever that you believe detracts from the faith, that is very different from some sort of cultish demonic summoning you eluded to earlier.

 

[Mickey]

I would say if you see poor music or whatever that you believe detracts from the faith, that is very different from some sort of cultish demonic summoning you eluded to earlier.

It’s a lot more than poor music my friend. The P & W service and the annual charismatic conference often resembles a Benny Hinn revival.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The former are symbols of the rich and beautiful theology of the apostolic faith. The latter are called the least of gifts in Scripture, are absent in the Church Father’s teachings, do not have valid interpreters, is nothing but gibberish…shall I go on?

If I call something the “least of gifts”, have I denied that it is a gift? Your interpretation of Paul seems inaccurate.

The holy fathers of the Church are virtually silent when it comes to the practices that you have adopted from the protestant charismatic revivalist movement.

By “virtually” silent, do you mean “not” silent? Because they certainly have spoken about it. Not all they have said is positive, nor is everything about the charismatic movement positive. But they have spoken, and they have been generally supportive.

We are to despise no one. Refusing to accept heterodox praxis is not despising someone.

I wasn’t saying you despised me. I was saying you despised the movement itself. But I wonder how something that brings people to Christ could be, as you have alleged, demonic?

I admire your zeal to defend the Church; I just think that, in this case, the zeal is misplaced. Some charismatics represent the church badly, but this is certainly also true of some devotional Catholics, who have their own forms of abuses. There’s a reason we call the Church “catholic” (universal), however – because our creed can embrace many cultures.

I am not in agreement with his writngs.

Well, he happens to be preacher to the Papal household, so I imagine the Pope is.

 

[graceandglory]

I meant to say protestant pentecostalist movement. .
.
.
If it is true that the Charismatic trademarks of tongues and fainting and convulsions is becoming more prevalent in the Catholic Church, I would be deeply saddened.

Me too. And I consider myself pretty charismatic. Maybe I’m an “orthodox charismatic” Catholic.