G
geoknee
Guest
What is the actual roman rite as to the ceremony when a Franciscan recites their vows?
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J
JReducation
Guest
There is none. The profession of vows for Franciscans comes out of the Roman - Franciscan Missal. It must always be done in the Ordinary Form. We have our own rite of profession, different from that of the Roman Rite. The differences are subtle and probably undetectable to the average person, but they are detectable to other religious who use the rite of consecration in the Roman Missal. The same is true for some of the other older order of men (i.e. Benedictine).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
logicnreasn
Guest
I heard that the Franciscans were the last Order approved and all that came after are congregations, is that true?There is none. The profession of vows for Franciscans comes out of the Roman - Franciscan Missal. It must always be done in the Ordinary Form. We have our own rite of profession, different from that of the Roman Rite. The differences are subtle and probably undetectable to the average person, but they are detectable to other religious who use the rite of consecration in the Roman Missal. The same is true for some of the other older order of men (i.e. Benedictine).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
No it’s not. The Rules of St. Francis were the last rules ever approved in 1221.
Every order after that had to use either the rule of Benedict, Basil, Albert, John de Matha, Augustine or Francis. For example. when St. Dominic approached with his rule, it was turned down. Since he had been an Augustinian Canon, he gave the Dominicans the Rule of St. Augustine and wrote constitutions to address whatever Augustine’s Rule does not address.
The last order to be approved was the Society of Jesus, but they don’t follow any rule. Ignatius wanted them to have the benefits of the orders, but not the obligations of the orders. This would allow them freedom to study, travel, and even dissent when necessary. They are free from such things as community prayer, meals, recreation and living together, unlike other orders.
The congregations take their model from the Jesuits, but do not make the same vows as the orders. Some of them follow one of the old rules and some do not.
For example, the Dominican Sisters are a congregation, not an order. They follow the Rule of St. Augustine, because it’s Dominican tradition. The Sisters of St. Joseph don’t follow any rule, because they take their example from the Jesuits.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
logicnreasn
Guest
Thanks, now I am confused. The Jesuits in high school told me they were a society not an order…oh well, guess it depends on the individual tradition.No it’s not. The Rules of St. Francis were the last rules ever approved in 1221.
Every order after that had to use either the rule of Benedict, Basil, Albert, John de Matha, Augustine or Francis. For example. when St. Dominic approached with his rule, it was turned down. Since he had been an Augustinian Canon, he gave the Dominicans the Rule of St. Augustine and wrote constitutions to address whatever Augustine’s Rule does not address.
The last order to be approved was the Society of Jesus, but they don’t follow any rule. Ignatius wanted them to have the benefits of the orders, but not the obligations of the orders. This would allow them freedom to study, travel, and even dissent when necessary. They are free from such things as community prayer, meals, recreation and living together, unlike other orders.
The congregations take their model from the Jesuits, but do not make the same vows as the orders. Some of them follow one of the old rules and some do not.
For example, the Dominican Sisters are a congregation, not an order. They follow the Rule of St. Augustine, because it’s Dominican tradition. The Sisters of St. Joseph don’t follow any rule, because they take their example from the Jesuits.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
T
Thomas_Casey
Guest
The Jesuits are an order. They make solemn vows. St. Ignatius founded them as a society so that they would not have to be bound by the same rules as the mendicants and the monks. Instead of calling them the Order of Jesus, he called them the Company of Jesus. That was their original name and is still their name in Spanish.
They are bound to solemn vows, like mendicants and monks. They are bound to pray the LOTH as are mendicants and monks. They are bound to Lectio Divina as are mendicants and monks. They are governed by a chapter called a congress, as are mendicants and monks.
What they don’t have is the community life that mendicants and monks have. In that regard, they are a society, because they don’t live an ordered life. But their canonical status is that of an order of pontifical right.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
His explanation may not have been clear. At the time, there were only three forms of consecrated life for men: hermits, monks and friars. They belonged to religious orders.
St. Ignatius did not want to found a religious order, because it would bind them to live, work and pray in community. They would also be bound by obedience to a superior He wanted his men free to think, teach, preach, and to move from place to place,wherever the pope sent them.
He set them up as a society. However, there was no such thing as a Society of Apostolic Life, which would have been perfect for them. This did not happen until 100 years later with St. Vincent de Paul. The pope insisted that they make solemn vows, just like the rest of the religious. This meant a postulancy, canonical novitiate, and juniorate before final vows.
However, the pope did exempt them from following a rule. St. Ignatius gave them statutes that they can change according to the needs of the times.
Their canonical status is a clerical order of pontifical right. They have the spiritual and legal benefits of orders, but none of the obligations. That’s what gets people upset. People expect them to be like other orders.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
L
logicnreasn
Guest
Thanks, that answer made me go to the attic and dig out my thirty year old notes on Church History. We were taught that the Lateran Council around the 12th century put a stop on all new Orders, and ordered all future congregations or societies to adopt an already existing rule. St. Ignatius Loyola asked permission, because of the “protestant revolution” to be permitted to allow his society to act under the authority of the Pope because some of the bishops were against the Society. There was a Papal Bull granting Ignatius wish, and he chose ad maiorem dei gloriam (AMDG) as their motto.His explanation may not have been clear. At the time, there were only three forms of consecrated life for men: hermits, monks and friars. They belonged to religious orders.
St. Ignatius did not want to found a religious order, because it would bind them to live, work and pray in community. They would also be bound by obedience to a superior He wanted his men free to think, teach, preach, and to move from place to place,wherever the pope sent them.
He set them up as a society. However, there was no such thing as a Society of Apostolic Life, which would have been perfect for them. This did not happen until 100 years later with St. Vincent de Paul. The pope insisted that they make solemn vows, just like the rest of the religious. This meant a postulancy, canonical novitiate, and juniorate before final vows.
However, the pope did exempt them from following a rule. St. Ignatius gave them statutes that they can change according to the needs of the times.
Their canonical status is a clerical order of pontifical right. They have the spiritual and legal benefits of orders, but none of the obligations. That’s what gets people upset. People expect them to be like other orders.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
In the margin I wrote, “The jesuits were under the authority of a bishop so in compliance with the letter of Lateran. The bishop was the bishop of Rome.” Did we miss something?
J
JReducation
Guest
Here is the problem. It’s probably a problem of translation. The Lateran Council prohibited the founding of new orders with their own rules. In April 1209 (13th century) Pope Innocent III overrules the Lateran Council by granting verbal approval to the first rule of St. Francis and his first order. In September 1221, Pope Honorius III also overrules the Lateran Council and approves Francis’ two other rules and his two new orders: The Brothers of Penance and the Poor Sisters. In 1223, Pope Honorius again overrules the Lateran Council and approves Francis’ fourth and final rule. In the course of 14 years and two papacies, the Lateran Council was overruled.
In 1209, Dominic approaches Pope Innocent III, just a few months after Francis and is told that the Lateran Council does not allow for new orders with new rules. However, the Dominican Order receives the privilege of erection, but not the privilege of a rule. Hence, Dominic having been an Augustinian Canon, gives to his Order of Preachers the Rule of St. Augustine.
Two years later the seven founders of the Friars Servants of Mary (Servites) approach pope Honorius with a rule for a new order. Pope Honorius repeats that the Lateran Council has banned new orders with new rules, but approves the Order of Servites. He assigns to them the Rule of St. Augustine.
As we can see, there were many orders founded after the Lateran Council of the 12th century, but only three of those orders were allowed to have their own rules, those three orders are Franciscan.
They were under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, but so were the Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Trinitarians, Cistercians, Trappists, Premonstratencians, Servites, Minims and Augustinians. This means that the Jesuits began as a Institute of Pontifical Right from day one. The other orders grew to that level. They started as private associations, then public associations, then diocesan associations and finally Pontifical Institutes.
Today, all institutes of Pontifical Right: religious orders, secular orders, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, religious congregations or prelatures are under the Bishop of Rome. The key word is Pontifical Right.
As your quote above correctly says, Ignatius asked the pope for many indults and dispensations from obligations that go with the life of an order. These were necessary to fulfill the mission of the Jesuits and they’re still necessary.
If you notice the only people who get rattled when a Jesuit college or Jesuit priest says something that is contrary to the teachings of the Church is the laity. The rest of us who are religious or diocesan clergy don’t bat an eyelash. The Jesuits have always been the ones who rattle the Church out of complacency. It’s their special gift to the Church.
Years go by and no one thinks about the nature of the moon. Along come the Jesuits and say that the moon is made out of Monterrey Cheese. All of a sudden, everyone’s heard jerks to attention and the debates begin. Finally, the truth about the moon’s nature comes to the surface again.
But the question was not about the Jesuits, but about the Franciscan Rite of Profession. The Frnaciscan Rite of Profession can be found in the Franciscan Ritual. There are three of them, one for each of the orders. The rite is not contingent upon the EF or OF. It existed long before the Tridentine mass existed. It dates back to 1221, some scholars say that it may be as far back as 1207 when the first brothers came to join Francis. But the first time that we see it in writing is when Francis writes the second edition to the rule in 1221. It was rather interesting too, because it’s focus is on obedience. Most people assume the Franciscan profession focuses on poverty. That’s not the priority. The priority in the rite is unquestioning obedience to the pope, bishop, Francis and his successors.
In all of the rules the rite begins with the same words, I**, Brother N, vow and promise** to Almighty God, to the Immaculate Virgin Mary, our Holy Father Francis and to you Father** to observe the rule and constitutions in obedience**, without property and in chastity. Obedience takes primacy. Also, observe that the superior is addressed as “Father”. This is not the same Father as is used for a priest. In this context, the term Father is being used to signal the succession from our Holy Father Francis down to this Father. The word Father is used twice as a sign of submission.
Before the actual profession of vows, there is an interrogation, that takes place during the rite. There again, the friar making vows addresses the superior as Holy Father.
After the vows are professed, the superior responds with authority,
“I on the part of Jesus Christ, our Holy Father Francis and the Holy Catholic Church promise you eternal life if you observe all these things.”
Observe that he does not say, Jesus promises. He begins with “I” implying that Jesus, Francis and the Church are speaking through him.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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deng123
Guest
The last order to be approved was the Society of Jesus, but they don’t follow any rule. Ignatius wanted them to have the benefits of the orders, but not the obligations of the orders. This would allow them freedom to study, travel, and even dissent when necessary. They are free from such things as community prayer, meals, recreation and living together, unlike other orders.
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http://www.interbankforex.info/g.gif
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JReducation
Guest
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logicnreasn
Guest
Than you, we shall disagree. I think 95% of your post is historically accurate, I think there is a tradition in the observants that the First Rule was approved prior to Lateran by Innocent III. I believe Ignatius Brady OFM held this position, and I think made reference to it in his translation of the 1221 Rule. (there is no original of the First Rule)
However, even the early Friars had disagreements among themselves, so much so that we now have Obsrvants,Capuchin, Conventual and TOR in the First Order. Poor Clares (nuns) in the Second order, and many in the third order.
The Rule of the friars is this, to live the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, in obedience and chastity without anything of my own.
Thanks, I shall continue to read, and try to keep my centuries straight.
However, even the early Friars had disagreements among themselves, so much so that we now have Obsrvants,Capuchin, Conventual and TOR in the First Order. Poor Clares (nuns) in the Second order, and many in the third order.
The Rule of the friars is this, to live the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, in obedience and chastity without anything of my own.
Thanks, I shall continue to read, and try to keep my centuries straight.
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geoknee
Guest
Thank you Br. JR for your very detailed and historical response! This has helped immensely!Here is the problem. It’s probably a problem of translation. The Lateran Council prohibited the founding of new orders with their own rules. In April 1209 (13th century) Pope Innocent III overrules the Lateran Council by granting verbal approval to the first rule of St. Francis and his first order. In September 1221, Pope Honorius III also overrules the Lateran Council and approves Francis’ two other rules and his two new orders: The Brothers of Penance and the Poor Sisters. In 1223, Pope Honorius again overrules the Lateran Council and approves Francis’ fourth and final rule. In the course of 14 years and two papacies, the Lateran Council was overruled.
In 1209, Dominic approaches Pope Innocent III, just a few months after Francis and is told that the Lateran Council does not allow for new orders with new rules. However, the Dominican Order receives the privilege of erection, but not the privilege of a rule. Hence, Dominic having been an Augustinian Canon, gives to his Order of Preachers the Rule of St. Augustine.
Two years later the seven founders of the Friars Servants of Mary (Servites) approach pope Honorius with a rule for a new order. Pope Honorius repeats that the Lateran Council has banned new orders with new rules, but approves the Order of Servites. He assigns to them the Rule of St. Augustine.
As we can see, there were many orders founded after the Lateran Council of the 12th century, but only three of those orders were allowed to have their own rules, those three orders are Franciscan.
They were under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, but so were the Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Trinitarians, Cistercians, Trappists, Premonstratencians, Servites, Minims and Augustinians. This means that the Jesuits began as a Institute of Pontifical Right from day one. The other orders grew to that level. They started as private associations, then public associations, then diocesan associations and finally Pontifical Institutes.
Today, all institutes of Pontifical Right: religious orders, secular orders, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, religious congregations or prelatures are under the Bishop of Rome. The key word is Pontifical Right.
As your quote above correctly says, Ignatius asked the pope for many indults and dispensations from obligations that go with the life of an order. These were necessary to fulfill the mission of the Jesuits and they’re still necessary.
If you notice the only people who get rattled when a Jesuit college or Jesuit priest says something that is contrary to the teachings of the Church is the laity. The rest of us who are religious or diocesan clergy don’t bat an eyelash. The Jesuits have always been the ones who rattle the Church out of complacency. It’s their special gift to the Church.
Years go by and no one thinks about the nature of the moon. Along come the Jesuits and say that the moon is made out of Monterrey Cheese. All of a sudden, everyone’s heard jerks to attention and the debates begin. Finally, the truth about the moon’s nature comes to the surface again.
But the question was not about the Jesuits, but about the Franciscan Rite of Profession. The Frnaciscan Rite of Profession can be found in the Franciscan Ritual. There are three of them, one for each of the orders. The rite is not contingent upon the EF or OF. It existed long before the Tridentine mass existed. It dates back to 1221, some scholars say that it may be as far back as 1207 when the first brothers came to join Francis. But the first time that we see it in writing is when Francis writes the second edition to the rule in 1221. It was rather interesting too, because it’s focus is on obedience. Most people assume the Franciscan profession focuses on poverty. That’s not the priority. The priority in the rite is unquestioning obedience to the pope, bishop, Francis and his successors.
In all of the rules the rite begins with the same words, I**, Brother N, vow and promise** to Almighty God, to the Immaculate Virgin Mary, our Holy Father Francis and to you Father** to observe the rule and constitutions in obedience**, without property and in chastity. Obedience takes primacy. Also, observe that the superior is addressed as “Father”. This is not the same Father as is used for a priest. In this context, the term Father is being used to signal the succession from our Holy Father Francis down to this Father. The word Father is used twice as a sign of submission.
Before the actual profession of vows, there is an interrogation, that takes place during the rite. There again, the friar making vows addresses the superior as Holy Father.
After the vows are professed, the superior responds with authority,
“I on the part of Jesus Christ, our Holy Father Francis and the Holy Catholic Church promise you eternal life if you observe all these things.”
Observe that he does not say, Jesus promises. He begins with “I” implying that Jesus, Francis and the Church are speaking through him.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
Thanks, I shall continue to read, and try to keep my centuries straight.
You’re getting your Councils and your orders confused. The first rule, of which there is no copy available, was approved after the ban on new rules. That’s why I said that Innocent overruled the council.
The early friars disagreed about the chapter on poverty, but that’s not how the three obediences of the Friars Minor came into existence. There were two dominant groups and several smaller groups. The two dominant groups were the Conventuals and the Observants. The Capuchin reform comes out of the Conventual and Observants in the 16th century.
The Third Order Regular are not part of the same order. They are part of the Third Order Secular. The follow the Rule of Penance. They were born about 10 years after Francis’ death. But they already had a rule. The reason for the division was that the Brothers of Penance had grown into two large groups, a secular group and a regular group. They were given different leadership and autonomy from each other. The TOR do not follow the Rule of the Friars Minor.
Actually, the final edition says “The Rule of the Friars Minor is to observe the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ in obedience,without property and in chastity.”
That’s why the Rite of Profession is worded the way that it is.
The point that I was making was that there was not a ban on new orders, just a ban on new rules. However, St. Francis got all four of his rules approved after the ban.
But there were new orders after the ban on new rules.
Dominicans
Norbertines
Servites
Jesuits
and some smaller ones that I can’t recall.
By the way, I don’t agree with everything that Ignatius Brady writes. A lot has to do with the time when you went to get your degree and where you got it. Different faculties have different perspectives on Franciscan History and Franciscan Theology. However, I respect him immensely. He certainly reawakened the whole area of Franciscan Studies. I did my doctoral dissertation under Thaddée Matura, OFM and he has a some different takes from those of Ignatius. Americans tend to lean toward Ignatius and Esser. Europeans lean toward Matura and Esser.
Fraternally,
Br.JR, FFV
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