Franciscan vs Carmelite

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Here is our main website, The Carmelites Province of the Most Pure Heart of Mary.

And our vocations website (which is a link off of the above page but I think it is important enough to also give you directly), Order of Carmelites.

It is also important to note, because the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming are not affiliated with either Carmeltie Order they are not a religious Order. They are a community of diocesan right with the bishop of Cheyenne being over them.

The two Carmelite Orders are true religious orders and both are of pontifical right.

The only issue I have with the Carmelite Monks is that whenever someone speaks of Carmelties this group is held up as the example, this is wrong and I am sure they would agree with me on that.

We O.Carm. (that is Order of Carmel, also called the Carmelties of the Ancient Observance, or the Order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel) also have two groups of hermit men in the United States. Here are their websites.

Carmelite Hermitage of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Lake Elmo, MN.
Hermits of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel in Christoval, TX.
Thank you for the link. I looked at the vocations site and your order is very cool. I laughed at one part though: “Be tolerant and patient and able to deal with loneliness”. Ha. As for tolerant and patient, I usually am, but if someone says something that really rubs me the wrong way it’s miracle if I don’t say something. As for dealing with loneliness… As long as I’m not alone for hours at a time I’m good.

Thanks for the links to the hermitages, but I could never be a hermit. Peace and solitude are not what I’m looking for. I like noise and people. 😛
 
What about those Carmelites who celebrate the EF, traditional office etc. Anyone have information on them? Thanks.
 
What about those Carmelites who celebrate the EF, traditional office etc. Anyone have information on them? Thanks.
There are no Carmelites who celebrate the EF.

There may be convents of nuns who have the EF celebrated as their conventual Mass but neither the OCD or the O.Carm., the only two male Carmelite Orders, who celebrate the EF.

After all we Carmelites (O.Carm.) have our own rite.

There may be some Carmelites (I can think of at least one) who may, at the request of a bishop and the approval of the superior, who celebrate the EF in a diocese parish for the diocese, but the EF is not celebrated within our houses as the conventual Mass.
 
I really don’t know much about the Franciscans but I think they are a teaching order. That said, the Carmelites are a contemplative order. I once wanted to become a Carmelite or Poor Clare nun.
 
There are no Carmelites who celebrate the EF.

There may be convents of nuns who have the EF celebrated as their conventual Mass but neither the OCD or the O.Carm., the only two male Carmelite Orders, who celebrate the EF.

After all we Carmelites (O.Carm.) have our own rite.

There may be some Carmelites (I can think of at least one) who may, at the request of a bishop and the approval of the superior, who celebrate the EF in a diocese parish for the diocese, but the EF is not celebrated within our houses as the conventual Mass.
Brother David,

I just found one, I think. Are they a different order?

sistersofcarmel.org/
 
Brother David,

I just found one, I think. Are they a different order?

sistersofcarmel.org/
First, I did say that there may be convents of Carmelite nuns who have the EF celebrated as their conventual Mass but it will not be done by Carmelite friars.

There are no Carmelite friars who have the EF as their conventual Mass.

Second,
The community you linked is affiliated with the Servants of the Holy Family which is not in communion with the Catholic Church.
 
First, I did say that there may be convents of Carmelite nuns who have the EF celebrated as their conventual Mass but it will not be done by Carmelite friars.

There are no Carmelite friars who have the EF as their conventual Mass.

Second,
The community you linked is affiliated with the Servants of the Holy Family which is not in communion with the Catholic Church.
I see.

So the OCD and OCarm are all male?
 
I see.

So the OCD and OCarm are all male?
No, there are OCD and OCarm nuns.

As I said, there may be some (mostly OCD I would think) that have the EF as their conventual Mass.

I am positive that no OCD or OCarm house uses the EF as its conventual Mass.

The OCarm surrendered our rite to Rome in the 1970’s, the OCD never had the rite as when they were broken off of the OCarm they did so without the right to the rite.

SP has returned the rites of the religious orders but I do not think our general council or the prior general has done anything about this so I am not sure if there are any OCarms celebrating that as of today.
 
Sorry for not seeing this before.

Well, the Carmelites that I know are the ones from Wyoming. They make Mystic Monk Coffee. Perhaps you’ve heard of them? They’re pretty cool, but I couldn’t stand living the Monastic life. I like to be out in the world, speaking to people, counseling people, and preaching the Word. Monks spend most of their time in prayer and work. They’re not very big on any of these things. Besides all that, I wouldn’t last a week. They wake up at Four in the morning. They’d kick me out after quickly realizing I can barely handle six in the morning.
FYI, here are the websites for the OCD Provinces of Friars in the U.S.:

ocdwest.org/ Western Province

ocdwashprov.com/ Eastern Province

carmelitefriarsocd.com/ Central (Oklahoma) Province
 
No, there are OCD and OCarm nuns.

As I said, there may be some (mostly OCD I would think) that have the EF as their conventual Mass.

I am positive that no OCD or OCarm house uses the EF as its conventual Mass.

The OCarm surrendered our rite to Rome in the 1970’s, the OCD never had the rite as when they were broken off of the OCarm they did so without the right to the rite.

SP has returned the rites of the religious orders but I do not think our general council or the prior general has done anything about this so I am not sure if there are any OCarms celebrating that as of today.
Good info.

Thanks!
 
Please forgive me if I make any errors at all. I know very little about the Carmelite traditions, but I do know that I feel the call to the desert and pray that if my vocation is to be a Third Order Carmelite (TOC) or Secular/Lay Carmelite (ODCS), God will pave that path for me.

In Dallas, there is a small OCD cloistered convent in Oak Cliff that was “host” to the local FSSP community every Sunday for many years, and still celebrates at least two masses a month in the EF with the FSSP priests during their monthly First Friday/First Saturday overnight vigil masses.

I found a most excellent statement about the differences between the charisms of different orders, and it brought great insight to me:
In any case, mendicant Orders do not base their identity on an apostolate, but on a spirituality, and the spirituality guides and directs the apostolates to which they dedicate themselves. The spirituality of the mendicant Orders reflects elements or an element that belong to the essence of the Church in the world. The dedication of the Dominicans to higher education is a fruit of Dominican identity of the preacher who spreads the word. Much of the Franciscan apostolate is a dedication to working with the poor. This is the fruit of the Franciscan desire to follow Jesus in the purity and simplicity of the Gospel. Augustinian spirituality is based on a desire to discover Jesus in the midst of community life which leads them to a dedication to many social apostolates. And the Teresian Carmel’s charism is based on the place of the loving personal relationship between God and the person found in prayer. From that base flows the work to which Carmelites dedicate themselves. (from* Pastoral Care of the Secular Order*)
I had often thought about prayer and contemplation in regards to the Carmelite charism, but this helped bring much-needed perspective of the apostolic mission of the Carmelites. I’ve been reading a lot about the apostolate of the Christian from the last two weeks’ readings in “Divine Intimacy”, and about what it will mean if I am led by Mary Queen of Carmel and her beloved Son to the vocation of a Third Order.

I heard a Carmelite priest say once that it’s hard to recruit priests to the Carmelite order because on the surface, they don’t appear to “do” anything. They don’t serve like the Franciscans or preach like the Dominicans. They just pray. A lot. It’s hard to explain why I am pulled to Carmelite spirituality. Maybe it’s my melancholic temperament. Maybe it’s the beauty of little Therese’s simplicity, or the simplicity of Brother Lawrence’s devotion. Maybe it’s because when I read St. Teresa’s writings, I feel comforted that a great spiritual leader can have thoughts that wander as much as mine. Or maybe it’s because every time I drive up to the Carmelite convent chapel for the First Friday mass, I see the statue of Our Lady of Mount Carmel holding Christ Jesus, and with tears in my eyes I instinctively say, “Mom, I’m home!”

At any rate, I think a pull to any particular order warrants a study of the spirituality behind the apostolate, not just an attraction to a habit, or a location, or an admiration of a particular saint.
 
At any rate, I think a pull to any particular order warrants a study of the spirituality behind the apostolate, not just an attraction to a habit, or a location, or an admiration of a particular saint.
I agree. It’s important to distinguish the spirituality (or reason for being, charism) from the apostolate (what we do). The apostolate should flow from the spirituality or charism.
 
I really don’t know much about the Franciscans but I think they are a teaching order.
Nooooooooo! Read Brother JR’s posts in this thread. Franciscans are a service order, specifically service to the poor. Teaching might be a part of that, under the service umbrella. I’ve known many Franciscans over the years, I only knew one friar who teaches; he’s a seminary theology professor, and Dean of of the seminarians. Many Franciscan sisters have teaching as their primary work; but just as many work in healthcare, with disabled people, elderly people, abused and pregnant women, etc. The Poor Clare Nuns are contemplatives and live behind an enclosure. One friar I knew has a PhD in Psychology, and provided services to adolescents who came from poor families that couldn’t afford to pay for the therapy.

I previously lived near a seminary where at one time, friars from the order Fr Benedict Groeschel is in (Franciscan Friars of the Renewal), practiced itinerant street ministry when not attending classes at the seminary, or in community at the house they rented just off the campus. They walked through town and begged for food for themselves and the local food bank, They also begged for items for the crisis pregnancy center. And they would pray and preach to anybody who would listen. Where there are Franciscans who teach, they are typically schools for poor children who’s parents can’t afford to pay. They do have institutes of higher education they operate as well.
 
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