Franciscans of the Primitive Observance

[Marauder]

Thank you for commenting on this thread I only hope that I can become as familar with all the aspects of the Franciscan charism as I progress farther in my formation for SFO. You had a much better way of putting into words what I was trying to say.

Thanks again,
Marauder

 

[foolishmortal]

I always thought they relied solely on God and that St. Francis was into total poverty and begging for the group (esp. ones like the FPO). Where do they, then, get the money to pay for a private school for as many as they do?

I would think their wisdom would come from reading, praying and the unprivileged life.

 

[JReducation]

I always thought they relied solely on God and that St. Francis was into total poverty and begging for the group (esp. ones like the FPO). Where do they, then, get the money to pay for a private school for as many as they do?

I would think their wisdom would come from reading, praying and the unprivileged life.

We (Franciscans) do trust God. But usually God works through very natural and human means. One learns to trust that some how God will provide. Even Francis truted that God would provide through others and through the work tha the friars did. Francis said in the rule that the friars were to work for the things they needed and only when they did not get enough were they allowed to beg. They were not allowed to become a burden on society.

As to wisdom, like everything else, wisdom comes from God. But as St. Bonaventure said, only some very special souls have infused wisdom. The rest of us have to get it through study and teachers. That’s why Francis allowed Anthony of Padue to send the friars to the university. That being said, academic studies are not supposed to extinguish the spirit of prayer and humility. Look at Aquinas, Anthony, Bonaventure, Dominic and others. They were all Doctors of theology or philosophy.

The Franciscans generally make special financial arrangements with local seminaries or local Catholic colleges and universities to get their education. Every friar must have at least a Master’s Degree if you want to be ordained or a professional degree if you want to do something else.

This does not exclude the spirit of prayer and dependence on God to help one find the resources to do this.

I don’t know this for sure, but given the fact that Cardinal Sean invited the FPO into his former diocese and the Cardinal is a Cauchin Brother and now the archbishop of Boston, it would not surprise me if they have some arrangement with the Archdiocese of Boston to use their seminary. The FPO are still part of the Capuchin family and so is the Cardinal.

Hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks! Wow! I hadn’t even thought of the writings of those later Franciscan saints.

In the movies, they seemed to go about and preach and live like beggars. Well, I guess the first followers of St. Francis had St. Francis. I figured college was probably a loosening of The Rule, but I never have read The Rule I should read that and others’ writings. .
As far as doctors of The Church go, I figured that was mostly infused knowledge or infused superunderstanding of what was learned in school and not having anything to do with how much schooling they got. As long as you don’t need a Masters to be a Franciscan, then I’m ok about that

Thanks for the correction!.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks! Wow! I hadn’t even thought of the writings of those later Franciscan saints.

In the movies, they seemed to go about and preach and live like beggars. Well, I guess the first followers of St. Francis had St. Francis. I figured college was probably a loosening of The Rule, but I never have read The Rule I should read that and others’ writings. .
As far as doctors of The Church go, I figured that was mostly infused knowledge or infused superunderstanding of what was learned in school and not having anything to do with how much schooling they got. As long as you don’t need a Masters to be a Franciscan, then I’m ok about that

Thanks for the correction!.

I’m glad this was helpful. You need a Master of Arts degree in Theology or Ministry to be a priest. You also need a Master in some other fields. It depends on what type of ministry you want. If you want to be a priest, you will need to get a four-year Master of Arts Degree or Masterof Divinity. The difference between them is that the MA has a Thesis and the M. Div. has comprehensive examinations, but no thesis.

If you want to minister as a teacher, you need to meet the State requirements. The Order expects you to have the appropriate education for your ministry.

Always remember, the Franciscan Order was founded as an order of brothers. They place the Franciscan vocation first. The idea is that you can be a secular and still be a priest. You become a Franciscan because you want to be a religious. The order reserves the right to deny a man permission to apply for ordination, even if he hs the degrees.

A Doctor of the Church is not the same as a Doctor of Theology. Do not confuse that. Bonaventure, Dominic, Anthony, Thomas A., Duns Scotus, John XXIII, Pius X, John Paul II were all Doctors of Theology, but not all are Doctors of the Church.

A Doctor of the Church is a theologian who teaches the Church something about her beliefs that was not understood before or adds something that makes a belief more clear.

People like Anthony of Padua, Bonaventure, Therese, Teresa of Avila, Thomas Aquinas, Catherine of Siena and many others were such people. Therese, Teresa of Avila and Catherine of Siena were not Doctor’s of Theology, but they did teach something about the faith that earned them the distinction of Doctor of the Church. The word Doctor comes from the Latin term, Teacher. They are Teachers of the Church.

Duns Scotus, John XXIII, Pius X, were all Doctors of Theology, but not Doctors of the Church. Not yet, anyway. If someone discovers that they have shed a new light on the faith of the Church, they may be named Teachers (Doctors of the Church).

Fraternally,

JR

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks! Still, what about doing little things for God like corporal and spiritual works of mercy, such as visiting the sick, etc.? Couldn’t they just do cheap day-laborer kinds of jobs to earn their keep to bring to the order, if possible? What about Brothers Juniper and Giovanni the Simpleton? When did these orders (besides the ones meant to be, like the Jesuits and teaching orders), esp. Francis’s, get so fancy? Well, priests need to be educated a lot to be ordained, but they could just get ordained apart from them and then join, thereby the order being free to be poor, right?

Anyway, I see religious life as being like at your personal judgment in that you are stripped of pretensions and excuses, not having your adult toys (I mean, high-def. tvs, computer stuff, PMPs, etc.) and “yes men/women” buddies, providing the order is in good shape. A monastery might be best, but some have interpersonal talents. Still, if you are doing well and helped well to do well, you still are more free of ego problems, unless you have ego problems and have little supervision by objective observers, such as is the case of a Jesuit missionary or one in an otherwise opinion-demanding employment.

Actually, the Carthusians and others who put themselves away in a cell probably have that best (as they have much more time and less distractions from facing themselves), but St. Francis and some others who do active things pulled it off.

 

[JReducation]

When did these orders esp. Francis’s, get so fancy?

I’m not sure if I would call getting an education getting fancy. But the Friars Minor were getting very heavy education even during Francis’ lifetime. Francis himself gave permission for it. When Anthony of Padua joined the Order he wrote Francis a letter and asked for permission to educate the friars at the univesity. Francis approved provided that studies did not extinguish the spirit of prayer.

Well, priests need to be educated a lot to be ordained, but they could just get ordained apart from them and then join, thereby the order being free to be poor, right?

You don’t have to be a religious to be a priest. So the answer is yes. A man can become a priest and later become a religious. That being said, having resources to send religious to school does not make an order rich. The cost of the education is either negotiated with the school to bring it down to a minimum or is gathered through begging in some shape or form. The order is still poor. Sometimes there are trade-offs. The order will give the university friars as professors in exchange for education of other friars.

Anyway, I see religious life as being like at your personal judgment in that you are stripped of pretensions and excuses, not having your adult toys (I mean, high-def. tvs, computer stuff, PMPs, etc.) and** “yes men/women” buddies, **

I’m sorry. I don’t understand the bold part. The bold is mine.

A monastery might be best, but some have interpersonal talents.

If a person does not have good people skills an enclosed monastery is the worse place in the world to be. Monastics have to live with each other under the same roof for life. There are no transfers between monasteries, if there are problems. You have to solve them yourself.

Actually, the Carthusians and others who put themselves away in a cell probably have that best (as they have much more time and less distractions from facing themselves),

There are many distractions in solitude. Don’t kid yourself. Ask any monastic.

but St. Francis and some others who do active things pulled it off.

Francis was not as active as we think. The problem is that when his biographies are written they speak about his activity, because there is nothing remarkable to say about his cotemplative, silent and solitary life. Whatever happened during those periods of silence and solitude he rarely shared except with Brother Leo and Brother Leo rarely wrote them down.

The entire Franciscan order is much more contemplative than people think. Our daily schedule and life has more periods of silence, solitude and prayer than periods of activity.

One of the reasons why there are less Franciscan friars in parishes or Secular Franciscans involved in ministry is because parishes and diocesan ministries have become too demanding of people’s time. They are usually very big and busy operations. It is not fair to the Franciscan to ask him or her to sacrifiece silence, community, prayer and solitude for parish ministry. Because parish ministry is not what the Order was founded to do. Parishes, schools, hospitals and other organized ministries were taken on by the friars and secular Franciscans because there was a desperate need. It was not part of the Franciscan identity.

It is not fair to the laity to have Franciscans in a parish, if the Franciscans are not available 24/7 because they have community obligations that take priority over ministry. That’s why the new community of the Primitive Observance do not want to engage in organized ministries. They don’t want to be totally absorbed by them as has happened to the other friars over the years.

The laity can be very demanding and rarely forgiving. If a friar says that he cannot attend a parish function because he has to be present for community recreation people get upset. They don’t see the value of community recreation, because they’re focussing on the word *recreation *and not on community.

Gradually, younger Franciscans who are friars or Secular Franciscans are saying that they want to live according to the primitive spirit of the Order and are not taking on obligations that are in conflict with the life of prayer, community, poverty, and freedom. The early Franciscans, both the friars and the seculars were very free. They came and went where they were needed, because they were not tied down by institutions.

They took on institutions and lost their freedom. Now the tendency is to shy away from institutions. That being said, there is also a clause in the rule of the friars and the rule of the Secular Franciscans where Francis says that we must support the local bishop. It’s a tough juggling act, supporting the local bishop and trying to keep up with the original spirit of the Franciscans of the 1200s.

I mention the friars and the Secular Franciscans, because those are the two orders that are not cloistered. The Poor Clares, though they are also Franciscan, were never caught in this situation between a simple life and ministry.

There are many Franciscan Friars and Secular Franciscans who do corporal works of mercy as their ministry. But many are involved in more organized ministries, to help the diocese. They do not do so because they were founded to run big ministries as were the Vincentians, the Jesuits, the Salesians, the Christian Brothers and many others.

This whole concept of the Primitive Observance raises many interesting conversations. It was addressed at the General Chapter of the Secular Franciscans in November 2008 when representatives from around the world gathered to discuss the life and rule of the Order. The biggest concern was returning to the primitive observance and how it would help or hurt the local dioceses.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks!

I forgot you said something about them being educated in Francis’s day.

I think “The Little Flowers of St. Francis” gives the impression they did do a whole lot of contemplative stuff. They did live as hermits for much time and didn’t travel much. All that is great. It doesn’t bother me. I know I need to be without fun stuff and even good books can be a distraction from emptying yourself of ego. They did go out, though, and it didn’t seem to boost their egos, except for the 2 originals and many later ones. It just seemed all went to heck when they got “respectable”. Didn’t St. Francis not want to get legit and write a Rule, because he just wanted to keep it like Jesus and his Apostles (maybe Jesus and the Apostles did mostly contemplative prayer as well 365X3 involves more days than the Bible stories probably account for, unless walking to all those places chewed up many months)? Did the academic studies come after St. Francis’s order’s numbers exploded and he couldn’t supervise everyone?

I was thinking that, for the Carthusians, they do have separate cells, right?

I bet bad social skills anyone has come out regarding changes in their way of life at their meetings (laughing).

 

[JReducation]

Thanks!

I forgot you said something about them being educated in Francis’s day.

I think “The Little Flowers of St. Francis” gives the impression they did do a whole lot of contemplative stuff. They did live as hermits for much time and didn’t travel much. All that is great. It doesn’t bother me. I know I need to be without fun stuff and even good books can be a distraction from emptying yourself of ego. They did go out, though, and it didn’t seem to boost their egos, except for the 2 originals and many later ones. It just seemed all went to heck when they got “respectable”. Didn’t St. Francis not want to get legit and write a Rule, because he just wanted to keep it like Jesus and his Apostles (maybe Jesus and the Apostles did mostly contemplative prayer as well 365X3 involves more days than the Bible stories probably account for, unless walking to all those places chewed up many months)? Did the academic studies come after St. Francis’s order’s numbers exploded and he couldn’t supervise everyone?

I was thinking that, for the Carthusians, they do have separate cells, right?

I bet bad social skills anyone has come out regarding changes in their way of life at their meetings (laughing).

We have to be very careful and very charitable. Just because a community evolves over time does not mean that it is going to hell in a handbasket. The Franciscans began to attend the university when St. Anthony of Padua joined the order. This was about 10 years after they were founded. Let’s say about 1219. The order grew into hundreds of thousands. It was eventually split up into different smaller orders. But all of us are sons and daughters of Francis, because we come out of the original community that exploded in size.

Even today, the Franciscan family is almost one million members in four different orders. Obviously, that many people are not all going to think like Francis. Most never met him. Most were not Italian and living in Assisi. They accomodated to their situation.

The rule of St. Francis is very simple. I am tempted to say that it is too simple. It is really a string of bible citations with some instruction scattered here and there. When it comes to interpreting and applying it, you’re going to have different insights. The scriptures lend themselves to multiple insights and all of them can be very good for the Church and for the soul.

There were always currupt individuals in the Church. The Franciscan Order has not existed in a bubble. So some of those currupt persons were Franciscans. But like every religious family, most Franciscans are honest people trying to live the Gospel.

It was not education that led to disorganization. It was actually the spread that was too fast and too far. They did not have the means of communication that we have today or the means of travel. There were friars who would write for instructions on the spiritual life or a question about the rule and they had to wait a year to get an answer. If the friars were in Asia or the Americas, it took longer.

When the Secular Franciscans began to spread like wild-fire, things became more interesting. Because the Order now had a secular branch with some married, some celibate, some ordained, some single, some bishops, some popes, some youth. Adapting to all of these circumstances and age differences and cultures was not easy. It took almost 700 years to get the rule of the Secular Order clarified by the Holy See. Pope Paul VI did it in 1978, just before he died.

Life has not always been easy within the Franciscan family. But the beauty of it, for those who can appreciate it, is that the family remains very attached to its founder. Franciscans really love Francis. We obey him and admire him as if he were still on earth. I think this joy of being related to Francis is contageous. It has brought vocations from around the world for 800 years. Even though were are different, we are still one family and we do many many things together and we love and respect every sub-group of the Order as one. There is no group that is superior to the others. They are all equal in dignity and in grace.

Even the profession of vows of the friars, the nuns and the seculars is considered to be the same and equal in validity and in solemnity and equal in its binding force on the individual.

To answer your question about the Carthusians, they live in separate cells or hermitages, but they do get together as a community several times a week. They are not allowed to remain alone all the time. There is a monk who checks on the cells daily to make sure that you have food and other things. They do get out for exercise and work.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks again! I didn’t mean to judge, but it just seemed St. Francis and his closest were dismayed at the laxities that were being added to The Rule after he came back from the Mid East, I think. That’s where I’ve got my impressions of his intentions for his group. Maybe he was just a bad manager of people, but an inspiration to those who “got it”, like Br.s Juniper, Giles, Leo, Bernard, etc… That’s not to say that those who live by The Rule as it stands today sadden St. Francis or that the later ones ruined everything or we wouldn’t have ones living a righteous life now.

I don’t know if I trust most colleges these days, including Catholic ones. I heard on EWTN’s “World Over”, the sad state of seminaries. Oddly, I thought I recently read of them being in better shape. I was concerned that maybe religious superiors don’t know what’s happening there. I recently read that St Maximillian Kolbe was not afraid of that in Rome, but female sexual solicitaters, based on what he heard from others, who may have been secretly jealous and so he doubted the knowledge of his superiors. Fortunately, he went and all went well. Maybe superiors today are aware of where problems are and most aren’t lax about that.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks again! I didn’t mean to judge, but it just seemed St. Francis and his closest were dismayed at the laxities that were being added to The Rule after he came back from the Mid East, I think. That’s where I’ve got my impressions of his intentions for his group. Maybe he was just a bad manager of people, but an inspiration to those who “got it”, like Br.s Juniper, Giles, Leo, Bernard, etc… That’s not to say that those who live by The Rule as it stands today sadden St. Francis or that the later ones ruined everything or we wouldn’t have ones living a righteous life now.

I don’t know if I trust most colleges these days, including Catholic ones. I heard on EWTN’s “World Over”, the sad state of seminaries. Oddly, I thought I recently read of them being in better shape. I was concerned that maybe religious superiors don’t know what’s happening there. I recently read that St Maximillian Kolbe was not afraid of that in Rome, but female sexual solicitaters, based on what he heard from others, who may have been secretly jealous and so he doubted the knowledge of his superiors. Fortunately, he went and all went well. Maybe superiors today are aware of where problems are and most aren’t lax about that.

I’m not sure where you heard the comment about St. Maximilian Kolbe. To the best of my knowledge he was never a Guardian while he was in Europe. He was the Guardian when he was in Japan. He built the famous seminary for the diocese of Okinawa.

What you hear on EWTN has to be taken in context. There are many thriving seminaries and very good ones. Boston, Miami and Mt. St. Mary’s are good examples.

Friars do not live in seminaries. They must live in friaries with other friars. They usually attend classes at either a local seminary if there is one where they can commute or they attend at a local university or college.

The Dominican friars have their own theologians come in to their house of studies. Other communities do not.

The Franciscans have several good universities around the country and the world. One of them is St. Bonaventure in the east and the other is Franciscan University in the mid-west.

The other important thing about the Franciscans academic life is that the student friars are always in a house with senior friars. There is always some kind of oversight. I believe that other mendicants have the same setup.

Going back to St. Francis and his conferes. One has to be careful. Nothing was added to the rule while he was away. What happened was that news got back to Assisi that Francis was dead. Brother Elias was the Vicar General. He took over the running of the Order. Elias was a very competent man. Francis was not a good leader. He was an inspiration, but not an organizer. Brother Elias who was a priest and a theologian began a project of reorganizatioin of the friars. He began to try to fill in the gaps in the rule. The things he added were not horrible or even did any damage to the order or the spiritual life.

Nonetheless, what he added to the community life was difficult for Francis to accept when he came back. So he dismantled it all. Later, St. Bonaventure would become Minister General and re-mantle what Elias had done. What Bonaventure added was the friaries, the houses of study, and he asked for a dsipensation from the Holy See that would allow the community to won their houses. The individual friars still would not own anything.

The rule itself cannot be changed by anyone except a pope. It has a papal seal on it called a Bull. The friars’ rule has remaind the same since 1223. The Poor Clares’ rule has remained the same since the 1250s’ The Secular Franciscan rule was revised by Paul VI in 1978. Only popes can touch any of the Franciscan rules. Not even the major superiors or the chapter of the community can change the rules.

As to property, the permission was granted to own houses as long as they were given back to the Church when they were no longer needed. The friars could not sell them or rent them out without proper permission. Even though on paper they owned a house, they did not have the same rights as other home owners have. They do not have them today either.

The reason Bonaventure and the Pope agreed that this was necessary was to keep the bishops and the state at arms length. If the houses were owned by the order and only the Holy See could have oversight of them, then the friars were free of the control of the bishops and the local government. This is still the case today.

The only Franciscans who are subject to the local bishop are the Poor Clares, because Canon Law says that all enclosed monasteries fall under the jurisdiction of the bishop. Even there, the nuns have some autonomy. For example, they created EWTN, but they never owned it. Therefore, it was never part of the diocese’ property. It was always an independent private non-profit corporation. They are not a Catholic agency. They are Catholic as in Catholic faith. Not the property of the Catholic Church.

The same applies to Catholic Answers. This is not a Catholic ministry. It is a minisry run by Catholics for everyone. That’s why you get some strange people here and they can say things that are against the teachings of the Church and no bishop or religioius superior can interfere.

This is what Bonaventure wanted for the friars. He did not want the friars to be caught in the political web between bishops and kings, which was often the case in the Middle Ages. He knew that Francis would not want it either. Then the friars would not be free to live their life as the rule said.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks again! I thought Br. Elias left the order and fought against somebody the Pope was for and got back in communion with the Church and the community near his end, but a Giovanni killed himself (I’m guess it wasn’t “The Simpleton”). Was “The Simpleton” like Rossellini’s version–an old and pious, but maybe senile old man? The original stories were changed some in the movie, but I think the theme was intact.
Also, was Bro. Juniper a saint? I heard Bro. Junipero Serra named himself after Bro. Juniper, who was a saint, according to what I read.

What do you think of the Franciscan Youth Volunteers? Is that reputable? I think I’m technically in the age limits at 33, but I’m a little out of shape (5’ 11 and 200-212lbs–scales can act weird).

 

[JReducation]

Thanks again! I thought Br. Elias left the order and fought against somebody the Pope was for and got back in communion with the Church and the community near his end,

Brother Elias was excommunicated for disobeying Francis. Near the end of his life, he recanted and the excommunication was lifted and he took his place within the fraternity. There is a very strict sense of obedience ot Francis among FRanciscans, even today. In his testament Francis wrote that we are to obey the Lord Pope, the Bishops, him and his canonically elected successors. Here is the key in the wording. He leaves himself in the equation. He does not surrender his role as father. So, 800 years later, the Franciscan family still obeyes him as Father Francis.

It’s kind of sad, because many of the sisters communities, such as teaching sisters, began to focus on the writings of Vatican II and left Francis out of the equation. They are dying of attrition. While the communities who embraced Vatican II and interpreted it through the eyes of Francis, even with our mistakes, we continue to thrive. Each of our communities is giving birth to new communities, just as was the case during Francis’ time. A simple example is my own little Community of St. Francis which is really a branch of the Secular Franciscans, the FPO, which is an extension of the Capuchins, as are the CFR and the Friars of the Eternal Word and extension of the Poor Clares. The holy Spirit was guiding his hand when Francis left himself in the order of authority, even after his death.

but a Giovanni killed himself (I’m guess it wasn’t “The Simpleton”). Was “The Simpleton” like Rossellini’s version–an old and pious, but maybe senile old man?

That is Hollywood. None of the early friars killed themselves. Brother John the Simple also called Brother John the Giant lived to be an old man.

Also, was Bro. Juniper a saint?

Juniper is not a saint. We do not know enough of his life to beatify him. Bro. Giles is a Blessed.

I heard Bro. Junipero Serra named himself after Bro. Juniper,

Actually Franciscans do not choose their name. It is chosen by the Major Superior or the Novice Master. Juniper Serra was names after brother Juniper because of Brother Juniper’s santliness. That’s probably the confusion.

What do you think of the Franciscan Youth Volunteers? Is that reputable? I think I’m technically in the age limits at 33, but I’m a little out of shape (5’ 11 and 200-212lbs–scales can act weird).

It’s a very good group. There are two of them. The other is CapCorps run by the Capuchin Friars Minor. They do very good work, live in community and have a very intense prayeer life and apostolate. Check out CapCorps too.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Mama_Mary]

My brother is an FPO currently at their friary in Nicaragua.
I must say that I’ve never seen him happier in his entire life. There is a certain level of happines that can only be achieved when a man lives every minute in servitude to God.
Please email me if I can help assist you with contact information.

Do you have the address in San Marcos Nicaragua?

Praised be Jesus and Mary

 

[foolishmortal]

Fr. Peter Giroux FPO
Coredemptrix Friary
30 Trinity Street
Lawrence MA 01841

This address got me the above person and a call from another from another place’s phone. Maybe writing them, as they have no phone, would get your answer. May God will it! I don’t see why He’d refuse.