Frantic handshaking during Mass

[7_Sorrows]

You must not drink the wine then. Everybody drinking from the same cup. They wipe the chalice w/ a towel, but it’s not santized. Notice the guy who was hacking in the pews drinking before you do.

that is why i try to sit as close to the front as i can so not as many people receive before i do. i do not have a strong immune system and am 60 years old so when i get a cold or flu i get very sick and it will take days to feel better.

 

[Actaeon]

Max, I’m going to take your statements in reverse here so that I might respond to them more fluidly…

The Mass is the representation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, not a time to catch up. There is nothing to allow for what is seen now, not even in the GIRM.

Generally speaking, the norm of offering some sign of peace is NOT an excuse to start a conversation. You know this, and you know that treating it like “time to catch up” is an abuse.

The discussion is about the appointed appropriate use of the sign of peace… not about abusive practices of it, so please don’t decry the norms of the mass based on abuses of those norms.

There is no historical precedent for meet-and-greet, hand-shaking distraction during the Liturgy.

This statement is completely and totally untrue.

First, we can date the kiss of peace back to Judaism and time in synagogue, since Jewish worship includes (and included) a time to greet one another with Shalom Aleichim (meaning Peace be with you). Jesus uses this greeting several times as well (such as in Luke 24:36, John 20:21, and John 20:26).

If that weren’t enough, we are extolled FIVE TIMES in the New Testament to greet others with a holy kiss (of love). These are Romans 16:16, 1 Cor 16:20, 2 Cor 13:12, 1 Thes 5:26, and 1 Peter 5:14

Still not enough? St Justin Martyr, in the oldest account of the mass, tells us in Chapter 65 of his first apology that: When we have completed the prayers we salute one another with a kiss, whereupon there is brought to the president bread and a cup of wine."

Still not enough? St Augustine said (emphasis mine): “Then, after the consecration of the Holy Sacrifice of God, because He wished us also to be His sacrifice, a fact which was made clear when the Holy Sacrifice was first instituted, and because that Sacrifice is a sign of what we are, behold, when the Sacrifice is finished, we say the Lord’s Prayer which you have received and recited. After this, the ‘Peace be with you’ is said, and the Christians embrace one another with a holy kiss. This is the sign of peace; as the lips indicate, let peace be made in your conscience, that is, when your lips draw near to those of your brother, do not let your heart withdraw from his.”

There was PLENTY of signs of peace going around pre-tridentine rite, and it was viewed as a very important part of the mass, which is why it was restored.

 

[Actaeon]

Not to bring this up again, but…
During the “sign of peace” after the Lord’s Prayer, I prefer to keep my hands together in prayer position and bow to those around me.

Just a question: does one’s preference for this or that overule the rubrics of the mass?

I don’t like the hand shaking because first, I think it often gets carried away, even continuing into the Agnus Dei with people reaching across three pews, running across the aisles, etc,

While I’m GENERALLY against the practice of “travelling bands of peace”, there are reasons for it… if one is at fault with their brother, they should not present themselves for communion until they have made peace, and THIS point of the mass is SPECIFICALLY designed for that event. If that means respectfully crossing the altar to offer a sign of peace before the Eucharist (which is Christ fully present to witness the making and wishing of peace and charity) then so be it.

and second, because it really is a prime means of spreading cold and flu viruses.

It’s amazing that humanity survived so long when we had to touch so many icky things without the presence of hand sanitizer to save us!

There are really a few solutions to this phobia of germs:

1. carry hand sanitizer and use it before you use your hands again
2. don’t put your hands to your mouth again until you can wash them (what a great opportunity to start receiving on the tongue!)
3. explain to people who try to shake your hand that you have a phobia of germs and mean them no disrespect (and that you wish them peace).

Now, it’s a given that when there is a pandemic outbreak going around, the greeting of peace should be limited to a verbal greeting… but that’s not a justification to avoid the norms year round in all places.

I respect those who do want to shake hands however. The problem is when people ignore my gesture and thrust their hand in front of me- as a woman did today, rather demandingly- and then I feel like I’ll hurt their feelings if I don’t shake their hand.

To be clear: the handshake is the normative gesture of peace and goodwill in the west (because it shows that the person offering the handshake is not holding a weapon and is lowering their guard by extending their hand away from any weapons they may be holding). In the east, a bow was used because in hand to hand combat a handshake is a mode of attack.

So the point of that is that you are violating social norms. Generally, the reasons people violate these norms are twofold (niether of which apply to you specifically, but may be how you’re coming off):

1. I’m better than you and will not lower myself to shake your hand
2. You are a dirty person and I might get sick by shaking your hand.

Obviously both of these sentiments are VERY offensive to the person on the receiving end of such treatment, which is why it would seem to behoove you that if you can’t get over your phobia of germs that you EXPLAIN to people trying to shake your hand that you’re not insulting them, but that YOU have a phobia about it that you can’t get over.

This way, you will not be turning your lack of returning the socially normative gesture of peace and goodwill into an insult which is entirely counter to the purpose of having the sign of peace in the mass in the first place.

It’s getting to where I don’t want to attend Mass anywhere but the one church where the handshaking thing doesn’t happen- in fact the priests and deacons there skip the “sign of peace” entirely, and no one clutches at your hand during the Lord’s Prayer, either.

Holding hands during the “Our Father” and offering the sign of peace are two TOTALLY different issues. The first is one which I distinctly avoid. If someone is insistent, I will still stand there and NOT hold hands and then will take time AFTER mass to explain why I do not hold hands during the our Father… but I still offer the sign of peace!

As to skipping the sign of peace, the GIRM states (emphasis mine):

1. Then the Priest, with hands extended, says aloud the prayer Domine Iesu Christe, qui dixisti (Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your Apostles) and when it is concluded, extending and then joining his hands, he announces the greeting of peace, facing the people and saying, The peace of the Lord be with you always. The people reply, And with your spirit. After this, if appropriate, the Priest adds, Let us offer each other the sign of peace.

So can the sign of peace be skipped? Sure, if the priest deems that it is INAPPROPRIATE to offer it there. Such a case might be acceptable to restore order to an unruly parish until such time as they can be educated on the appropriate solemnity due to offering the sign of peace, but for a parish where it can be appropriately offered, then the priest is directed to add it.

 

[g_ncl]

I am much like 7 Sorrows - when I am at Mass I focus on what is happening, the incarnation of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and my encounter with Him in receiving. I go to random churches depending on the time of the Mass and my schedule both on weekdays (when I go) and on Sundays; I go for the Lord, not for community.

As for receiving by drinking the wine - I hardly ever do it. The Church is very clear on that you receive the whole Christ if you only take the bread. I don’t refrain from taking the wine because of germs but because so many things can go wrong: the chalice slips and gets dropped, you cough, sneeze, it goes down the wrong way, you have to tilt it far if you are at the end of the line and then, depending on the shape of the chalice the wine comes “rushing” - I don’t see any point in this when you can receive the Lord fully in just the bread, too.

 

[Actaeon]

I am much like 7 Sorrows - when I am at Mass I focus on what is happening, the incarnation of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and my encounter with Him in receiving. I go to random churches depending on the time of the Mass and my schedule both on weekdays (when I go) and on Sundays; I go for the Lord, not for community.

Just to highlight, one of the important aspects of the mass is the fact that it is about the community of faithful coming together as one Body, united in the Eucharist and celebrated throughout heaven and earth. It’s part of why Jesus and the Apostles spent so much time stressing the need for reconciliation between those with strife: because community is important to the faithful, and has been since the old covenant.

If you’re not going to be part of the Body of Christ, you’re missing an important aspect of the mass and the Eucharist.

 

[Faithdancer]

Just a thought but, instead of focusing on trying to get other people to NOT be so enthusiastic in their actiong during the Sign of Peace, I think you need to work more on yourself and worry less about hurting your fellow parishoner’s feelings if you do not prefer to shake their hand when they extend it. They are adults, they can handle you extending the sign of peace in a manner you find comfortable. If they aren’t mature enough to handle not shaking hands, then that is their issue, not yours. You don’t have to participate in any form or gesture that other people feel comfortable offering as a sign of peace.

I hear what you are saying, Patrice, and as I think I said in the original post, I don’t care if others want to shake hands. The issue is with those who thrust their hand in close and stare at me, despite my obvious posture. I always smile and bow, but it’s not enough for some folks. I think at some point it can become invasive. I also don’t need to hold hands during the Our Father, that practice is not in the Missal and it can also be overdone, to the point where people run to the end of the pew and grasp someone else’s hand impulsively. Why is it okay to invade someone’s personal space during Mass?

 

[Faithdancer]

No, in the Eastern Rites the congregation exchange the kiss of peace from as far back as anybody has cared to document what goes on in a Liturgy. It is actually the omitting of the practice which is a recent, modern development.

Sorry, but I attended Mass pre-Vatican II in the early 60s and I don’t believe there were any of these here carryin-ons! Gotta agree with Grandfather. And no offense, but it doesn’t really matter to me what the custom has been in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, because I’m Roman Catholic. We split quite awhile back, although granted it was over other issues, such as the Filioque clause…

 

[Chrish1975]

At one of the parishes that I occasionally attend, there’s a gentlemen who always gets up and leaves (presumably to use the restroom or something) right before the handshaking and he always returns right afterwards. It took me awhile to notice the pattern, but now I’m sure it’s his non-confrontational way to handle the problem you’re having: when it’s hand-shaking time, he’s simply not there. Something to consider…

I definitely watch for people whose body language indicates they don’t want to shake and I “wave” peace to the them.

At my Church we just wave. Never been to a church where they shake hands. I once went to a Catholic church where we all held hands during the our father prayer.
If you are concerned about germs carry a packet of alcohol wipes and use them after you shake hands.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sorry, but I attended Mass pre-Vatican II in the early 60s and I don’t believe there were any of these here carryin-ons! Gotta agree with Grandfather. And no offense, but it doesn’t really matter to me what the custom has been in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, because I’m Roman Catholic. We split quite awhile back, although granted it was over other issues, such as the Filioque clause…

You do know that the Church has a history that dates back way before the 1960s. In fact there is about 1600 years of history prior to Trent.

The Tridentine Mass dates back to the 1600s, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom dates back to 400AD. And we have the Kiss of Peace in the Divine Liturgy.

 

[Faithdancer]

I think people should go back to wearing gloves at church!
Remember when all the women and girls wore those little white gloves?

Actually, I think most people on this thread a little TOO germaphobic. It’s not that big of a deal.

The gloves are a good custom, like head scarves.
As far as germaphobia, I think it needs to be distinguished from common sense precaution, which says avoid touch contact to avoid colds and flu. Of course, people sneeze on the missalettes, etc. so maybe disposable plastic glove dispensers in the pews would help. If those were present I’d be happy to engage in the handshaking contests.

I substitute teach primary grades and believe me, I feel like I should wear a biohazard suit to work with those kindergartners once the viruses start going around.

 

[Faithdancer]

You do know that the Church has a history that dates back way before the 1960s. In fact there is about 1600 years of history prior to Trent.

The Tridentine Mass dates back to the 1600s, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom dates back to 400AD

This I know, but again, the handshaking competition is a recent development. It was not present pre-Vatican II, nor is it done at any Tridentine Masses I’ve attended. And my point, again, is that it crosses the line when it becomes aggressive and invasive toward those who simply want to fold their hands and bow and smile. Just because I don’t want to be clutched at, doesn’t mean I don’t feel the fellowship and good will. Why is that so hard for some to understand?

 

[Faithdancer]

This time of the Mass is an issue for me also, I dread it. I have watched others who handle it in the ways you have described and I find it difficult for me to do the same. When I attend Mass I seek a seat away from others but this makes me feel bad also. I actually had a man next to me one day who bear-hugged me over a hand shake. Then, when I think about how I am about simply greeting another person, in Church no less, I really feel awful. On the rare occasion when my non-Catholic husband is in Church with me, he leaves for good before he has to shake someone’s hand.

Ever been to an Opus Dei Evening of Recollection, mountee? They have them for both men and women, and I find they are the epitome of fellowship, yet without bear-hugs or high-fives. It’s amazing how that can be possible…

 

[Faithdancer]

I also find the handshaking disrespectful from those who receive Jesus in the hands, but what do I say, I am a poor sinner. God forbid my judgement of others!

I am only not worthy to shake a hand that becomes a throne for Jesus during communion.

Why do I go to mass? First I want to embrace Jesus and then follows the second commandment. What do the children need from their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters? Would I not embrace them after being purified?

I will follow the Holy Father. He only distributes communion on the tongue while kneeling, probably as an answer to the “modern mix up of priorities”.

The mass is an encounter with the sacrifice of Calvary and the uniting with Jesus, which is called communion, first in the word and then sharing in his body and blood.

We must mingle our blood with Jesus’ blood in order to be purified.

Currently I just have to tolerate silently what is happening until I have more to say regarding customs and body formation of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Our generation will go back to tradition and there will come a better distinction between authentic Catholics and false Catholics, distinction between superficial and true.

Communion on the tongue while kneeling? Amen, Amen I say to you, andreashofer!
And according to Cardinal Arinze, communion on the tongue is the NORM, and in the hand is the EXCEPTION! And he should know, being in charge of the liturgy these many years!

 

[Faithdancer]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Hold that Agnus Dei- only four more to get to 100!

 

[Faithdancer]

I thought it was optional.

In fact, when I was at the funeral Mass for my former pastor (which was said by the bishop), he did not choose to have people offer each other a sign of peace. Which was fine with me, not because I don’t like to offer peace, but because in most (not all) of the places I have been (obviously, not every parish in the U.S. and world) the sign of peace is not limited to an exchange of peace such as a sober nod, a handshake, a bow, whatever, but does indeed involve people leaving the pews, crossing the aisles, talking loudly, flashing ‘peace signs’, hugging and kissing and running around to see grandma and grampa up on the altar who have gone up to be EHMCs. . .the EMHCs themselves high-fiving and blackslapping. . and all of this during the AGNUS DEI yet. if it weren’t for the fact that the AD was usually sung, nobody would even notice it with all the noise, and certainly few pay attention as it’s ‘background’ to the important ritual of community involvement.

Actually, friend, I would indeed prefer the ‘kiss of peace’ in a sober fashion, done with the persons right next to you (left and right), not the people in front or behind, the next pew over, etc. That way we MIGHT be able to concentrate on the Agnus Dei appropriately, and people would still perform this rite if it MUST (it is optional) be done.

Now obviously if my years of experience had involved people giving the sign of peace in a quiet, reverent manner, I would probably look FORWARD to the sign of peace as a normal, loving, integral part of the Mass (even though it is optional). Probably many people reading this have had this experience and wonder–might not even believe–that anybody else’s experience could be so different.

But it can be. It shouldn’t be, but it can be.

Most of us really do not want a sign of peace totally gone forever (well, only on the days when it’s been the worst!). Really. We just want to have it done, not according to OUR will, but according to the standards of the Church, and not ‘what has become the parish custom of all out stampeding and hullaballoing’).

If there exist one or two people in your parish who might, now and then, cross the aisle to greet an old friend or somebody who has been sick and recently recovered, please BE ASSURED that we are NOT SAYING that these people are ‘inappropriate’ or doing things wrong.

Even those who routinely do this because they’ve become accustomed to ‘Parish McFriendly’ aren’t culpable as they really don’t know they are NOT supposed to careen across the Church, throw their kids up in the air, or have a booming conversation about football season prospects.

We just want a gentle, gradual, pastor-led ‘education’ which will guide the people to doing the Sign of Peace according to Hoyle, so to speak. . .and clearing up the MESS which exists in some (not all) parishes on a regular, semi-regular, or occasional basis.

Right on, Tantum, and you address the major point- how does running around helter skelter, equal “community?” I can feel community with the entire Church this very moment, yet I’m not touching any other Catholic…certainly not grabbing at them or poking them!

 

[Faithdancer]

If someone wishes to not extend their hand in a sign of peace, they certainly are able to extend their sign of peace to me through their eyes. It’s certainly a very small cross to bear in either direction.

This is what always try to do, Stylites. But lately I’m skittish that someone will take that as a green light to bull rush me!

Personal space applies in Mass, as in everywhere else.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This I know, but again, the handshaking competition is a recent development. It was not present pre-Vatican II, nor is it done at any Tridentine Masses I’ve attended. And my point, again, is that it crosses the line when it becomes aggressive and invasive toward those who simply want to fold their hands and bow and smile. Just because I don’t want to be clutched at, doesn’t mean I don’t feel the fellowship and good will. Why is that so hard for some to understand?

Because to simply remove the Kiss of Peace just because people have turned it into something that it is not supposed to be is contrary to the spirit of why the Apostles themselves put that practice there in the first place. Is this the result of our generation of “throw it away” mentality? If something is broken, we don’t fix it, we throw it away. Oh, the TV is broken, throw it away. The car is broken, junk it. Something in the Liturgy is broken, let’s just remove it. Oh, my marriage isn’t working, divorce!

The Kiss of Peace is a good thing. If there is something wrong with it today let us fix it and restore it to what it once was, not remove it.

 

[Faithdancer]

Because to simply remove the Kiss of Peace just because people have turned it into something that it is not supposed to be is contrary to the spirit of why the Apostles themselves put that practice there in the first place. Is this the result of our generation of “throw it away” mentality? If something is broken, we don’t fix it, we throw it away. Oh, the TV is broken, throw it away. The car is broken, junk it. Something in the Liturgy is broken, let’s just remove it. Oh, my marriage isn’t working, divorce!

The Kiss of Peace is a good thing. If there is something wrong with it today let us fix it and restore it to what it once was, not remove it.

I agree with you here. Let it be whatever those consent to it being- an actual kiss, a handshake, or prayer hands and a blessing. Just so long as it isn’t invasive of personal space, disruptive of the general reverence of the Eucharist, or delaying of the Liturgy!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Normally I abhor typing something from a book because, well, it’s hard. But I’m reading a book on the Divine Liturgy and I just finished on an entire (short) chapter on the Kiss of Peace. Here are some excerpts:

The kiss of peace is one of the oldest part of the Liturgy, going back to Apostolic times. In the early centuries, the faithful exchanged the kiss of peace at every Christian synaxis (gathering), immediately after the intercessory prayers. Through this sign of unity and love the Church commended her prayers to God, for such unity and love made her intercession acceptable to Him. In those early times, all Christians gave the kiss to each other, regardless of gender. Each would greet his neighbors standing around him, wishing them the pace of Christ and exchanging the kiss.

–snip–

*When we do not fully appreciate the corporate nature of the Church, we fail to appreciate the true significance of the peace as well. If we think of ourselves primarily as individual participants in the Liturgy, it is easy for us to think of the peace as individuals to greet one another as individuals. The peace then becomes a kind of Liturgical social time, a time to say “Hello! How are you?” Wonderful as such social exchange are, they are not what the peace is all about. Such exchanges belong outside the Liturgy at the coffee hour. The peace is not a time to inquire into the welfare of one’s neighbor. Nor is it about mutual affirmation, and it ought not to degenerate into a kind of liturgical “hugfest”. Rather, in the peace the members of the church acknowledge one another as fellow members of the same body and each affirms his spiritual solidarity with his neighbor, exchanging the peace saying “Christ is in our midst.” By greeting only those in the immediate vicinity, we can exchange the peace in about ten seconds without disrupting the flow of the service.

In congregations that do not have the practice of actually exchanging the kiss of peace when the deacon tells them to do so, the introduction of the kiss might cause some initial discomfort and embarrassment. We North Americans often have difficulty gracefully incorporating such greetings into such a formal setting as a church service. But that is all the more reason to do so. God means the Church to be a family, and if we hold back from greeting our neighbor because that neighbor is a stranger to us, we have a problem. For how can a fellow member of the same body be a stranger to us? Congregational reluctance to exchange the kiss thus reveals that the congregation has some growing to do before it can truly be a united family in Christ. Such growing might be painful. But everything alive grows. The only alternative to growth is death. In the Liturgy, God calls us to grow, and Christian growth always involves growth in love.

From the days of the apostles, the Church has affirmed the primacy of love by exchanging the kiss of peace at her services. The restoration of the giving of the peace, whether through handshake, hug, or kiss on the cheek, powerfully witnesses to this and manifests the Church as a family, a community which lives and fulfills itself by love. *

 

[g_ncl]

If you’re not going to be part of the Body of Christ

I cannot not be part of the Body of Christ, Actaeon: I was baptised. Hermits were and are also parts of the Body of Christ. Charles Foucauld, who lived in the desert amongst the Tuaregs for 15 years, celebrating Mass alone and often not having another Christian within hundreds of miles was also part of the Body of Christ. The secret Christians in Islamic countries, who sometimes don’t have contact with another Christian for decades after their secret baptism in a tent with a bowlful of water are also parts of the Body of Christ.