Freaked out!. (neuroscience is beginning to debunk free wil?!?!)

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So I came across some articles about scientists claiming/proving that humans don’t have free will and free will is just an illusion.

Are these claims held by the majority of scientists or just a few odd people?

Even if it was proven that our mind doesnt use free will does that mean we don’t have free will? like our soul has the free will?

I’m really freaked out by this and the only thing keeping me from going nuts with this is my faith and trust in the church’s teaching on man having free will! I’m trying to take the word of Jesus and his church over the word of fallible scientists

Any comments for this? Am I overreacting?
“free will” is really just a shortcut word to “i dont know for what reasons you are making a decision”.

technically our mental processes (decisions) are results of chemical reactions based on a great many conditions both inside the person and outside of him. the precise details we dont know. but generally we are predictable which is why one is able to outsmart another.

so theoretically if we know each and every condition calculated by the brain, a person would be 100% predictable. 🙂
 
I’m really freaked out by this and the only thing keeping me from going nuts with this is my faith and trust in the church’s teaching on man having free will! I’m trying to take the word of Jesus and his church over the word of fallible scientists

Any comments for this? Am I overreacting?
This is a commonly held view in the field of neuroscience. But it goes back to earlier deterministic views that peaked in the era of Eugenics that led to the Second World War.

During the early Twentieth Century physics - a physical science like chemistry, both of which are deterministic in nature - held the most prestige among the sciences and I think this led many in the life sciences to look to physics to apply deterministic principles to the behaviors of living, complex, organisms including humans.

Today few biologist subscribe to biological determinism though.

Neuroscience - which is very interdisciplinary - is very deterministic, as I stated before.

In my opinion I would concede free will is contingent on a health brain. For physical behavioral responses the whole nervous system of the human probably needs to be healthy too. Think of those with Tourettes Syndrome that exhibit uncontrolled tics.

But I read a young Jewish kid’s view supporting free will and found it persuasive. The kid majored in neuroscience and philosophy and then went on to medical school. And in his view poetry written by the poet gives evidence of free will rather than determinism with only a said number of possible outcomes as thoughts travel down X number of neural pathways in the brain.
 
There are many different research methods and a variety of materials used to explore the physical brain and volition.

What were the methods and materials used in these claims? How did the methods imitate free will? Were the materials external to the anatomy such as the use of electrodes? What was the definition of free will which was being used such as Cartesian dualism? How many subjects were studied? How did the methods eliminate free will? What were the tasks given to the subjects? Were the tasks similar to real life choices? What was the stimulus?

Those are just a few of the obvious factors to be checked to determine if the evidence in the claim (citation needed) warrants the interpretation. Note: one needs to first examine the actual conclusion and then determine if the media interpretation is valid.
Granny is correct, Ben.
 
Strictly speaking, from a physiological point of view, neuroscience is correct, in this way: Our nervous systems are composed of neurons which either “fire” or remain inactive. In this sense, our minds and feelings are a collection of discrete binary elements.

The proof that there is a finite number of states for a human is simple. We have a finite number of neurons. And, for that matter, there are a finite number of organisms. Each of these neurons can be enumerated in terms of their potential states. Therefore, there are a finite number of thoughts, actions, emotions that you can think, do or feel. HOWEVER, this number is very large. You have billions of cells. So enumerating the number of possibilities would result in a very large number, as we know from the variety of life that we experience.

So, yes. You don’t actually have free will, in the sense that your possibilities are unlimited. There are enumerable limits to what you may think, feel or do.

If you look at free will from another mathematical angle, any system with discrete “logic” gates (neurons), which are of finite number, and in a particular relationship to each other, can only move from one discrete state to another, when those neurons fire off. What that state will be can be defined by the current state of the system, and the (name removed by moderator)ut of stimulus to the system. This is known as determinism. So, in this very real sense, free will does not exist. But once again, the variety of potentials is so large with each person, and then that is multiplied by the number of people in the world exponentially, that it is a popular philosophical notion that free will exists. What exists, from the point of view of the neurosciences, is the illusion of the perception of free will because rationally, we can’t really grasp the number of possibilities. The human mind is clearly only capable to think in small numbers. This has been studied extensively. Our thoughts are very limited compared to what is around us, numerically… or in our ways to enumerate just about anything.

Even without the physiological understanding, this concept goes back a ways. The Deists, of course, understood that an omnipotent God could only be omniscient, if all events to come were predetermined. As soon as God exercises omnipotence and intervenes to change the future, then omniscience no longer applies. This is simple logic.

So, where does this leave a person of faith? Faith is the acceptance of things without requiring proof or logic.

My response to this conundrum is that, there are things which we don’t understand logically or through facts. This is the realm of the supernatural, where God is. Life has more value to me, when I am also a spiritual person. So, while I accept the apparent logic and facts of science, I also reserve the right to believe that there is more than meets the eye of the scientist going on. The rational mind of he Deist was a great thing. If not for that, America might not exist, for example. But their scope of thought was limited to just that… logic. I guess I am saying that in spite of our scientific progress, or perhaps because of it, I prefer to have some mystery and spirituality in my life. Perhaps this is the mystery of free will, which science cannot quantify.
Interesting post. I learned a bit from it. Thank you.
 
A sensible reply for an alarmist argument.

To the OP - no. We haven’t disproven free will.

There’s a lot of “media-hype” surrounding my field of study these days - similar to the cloud of hype that hovers around quantum physics.

Might i make a suggestion? Instead of relying upon a media outlet, why not go to the source of the claim? As in - google the (hopefully) peer-reviewed article making the claim.
He’s have to be familiar with the language used in the various fields of science and he would need a good grasp of mathematical statistics. He would also have to have an appreciation for the methods and materials portion of the scientific paper(s). Otherwise he can’t reasonably be expected to be engaged in “active reading” and sufficiently comprehend the material he is reading and be able to read critically.

I can barely do this with some novice undergraduate background in a science, so, I can imagine how difficult it would be for another lay person (of science) with no education and background in science to read scientific writing.

This is one reason why it is crucial the media reports things accurately and objectively about science - which of course they often do not.
 
He’s have to be familiar with the language used in the various fields of science and he would need a good grasp of mathematical statistics. He would also have to have an appreciation for the methods and materials portion of the scientific paper(s). Otherwise he can’t reasonably be expected to be engaged in “active reading” and sufficiently comprehend the material he is reading and be able to read critically.

I can barely do this with some novice undergraduate background in a science, so, I can imagine how difficult it would be for another lay person (of science) with no education and background in science to read scientific writing.

This is one reason why it is crucial the media reports things accurately and objectively about science - which of course they often do not.
Sometime back, the nitty-gritty of methods and materials were talked about in my closed threads. I still hold that a basic understanding of what science research entails can be applied to any natural science research. In addition, understanding the difference between improbable and impossible is essential. Obviously, the research conclusion has to be warranted by the evidence. And if there is an extrapolation by an interpreter, that too must be warranted by the evidence.

All the above is basic common sense which should help ordinary folk from becoming “Freaked out!” as in the OP.
 
You may have freaked out Ben, but for all the wrong reasons. A socks B right in the jaws, because B stole his favorite pair of stockings the day before Chirstmas. B claims…
My 2 cents.

This is true. The “cause and effect” paradigm doesn’t hold up when closely examined. It’s just something we put OVER the flow of life to be able to navigate in our lives. But it’s not absolutely true. You cannot just cut life before and after something happens and say: so here is the cause and here is the effect. How would you do that? Who would decide when is the right place for cut to be made? Everything just flows!

The example you put up is a great evidence for no free will and no cause and effect, you just don’t see it, because you are looking at it from your stagnant point of view.
No worries of me questioning my faith. I was just confused by your earlier comment about the “I” being an illusion while our real self is hidden. I don’t see how the “I” can be an illusion since its what makes the final decisions on every thing and saying it is an illusion seems like it is saying that the “I” in our identity isn’t really free…thus our concsious decisions wouldn’t be held culpable if this were true…and also confused on when we are thinking from our true self and thinking from the illusion…it seems like we have 2 different identities in our body.
You’re onto something man, keep going! The decision making and I are all illusions. THIS DOESN’T HAVE TO ME BELIEVED IN, it can be examined in real life and looked at and seen. No need to believe required. But this would just break down the foundations of Christianity, because without free will, there is just Life, some call it God, doing its thing. No you separated from it.

And not separated it is mate.

Just my opinion.
 
And may I respectfully present my opinion of those philosophers, not the people on CAF, who could not figure out if they existed as an illusion in someone else’s imagination (slight exaggeration)
– codswallop! Just because a few guys were a couple of sandwiches short of picnic does not automatically mean that the foundations of “christianity” will turn to sand and wash away in the next thunderstorm. It is the foundations of human nature, yours, mine, and the rest of the human population, regardless of our disbeliefs, which is under stealth attack.
 
“free will” is really just a shortcut word to “i dont know for what reasons you are making a decision”.

technically our mental processes (decisions) are results of chemical reactions based on a great many conditions both inside the person and outside of him. the precise details we dont know. but generally we are predictable which is why one is able to outsmart another.

so theoretically if we know each and every condition calculated by the brain, a person would be 100% predictable. 🙂
So, if we had a computer big enough to calculate all the chemical and physical reactions of the universe, we could predict, with 100% accuracy, your response to a post (including gramatical and spelling errors)?

If that is the case then it is a bit odd that we are even capable of having this discussion. It would mean that from the time of the big bang, I was destined to respond to your post with these exact words. It was all preordained by the forces of nature, and we are just playing it out. When one person hurts another, it was preordained by the forces of nature. When mother Theresa helped the poor, it was preordained.
 
So, if we had a computer big enough to calculate all the chemical and physical reactions of the universe, we could predict, with 100% accuracy, your response to a post (including gramatical and spelling errors)?

If that is the case then it is a bit odd that we are even capable of having this discussion. It would mean that from the time of the big bang, I was destined to respond to your post with these exact words. It was all preordained by the forces of nature, and we are just playing it out. When one person hurts another, it was preordained by the forces of nature. When mother Theresa helped the poor, it was preordained.
No, it’s not odd at all. And you were not destined to do anything. Who would destine you to do it? It just happened, because conditions for it to happen were there.

Please, don’t confuse determinism with fatalism. Decisions made without free will still have consequences and they still matter. It’s called “illusion of free will” for a good reason. Because if it is true that there is no free will, it has always been true. And see how well it worked out.

This is nothing but a display of incredible human arrogance regarding our place in this world. We need to be separated and in control. Good luck with that mate.

And no, I don’t think I was exaggerating when I said this would undermine foundations of (not only) Christianity. If life is one big flow and feeling of separation and free will are as well nothing but part of this flow, how would judging of sins work?

How would original sin make any sense at all without a free will? All would fall down.
 
Free will is the human ability to go against our natural instincts for survival.
 
How does one make a ‘‘decision without free will’’? This is an honest question. As I understand matters it would not be a decision, but merely a prompt (i.e. when a person touches a hot object they generally move their hand off the hot object).

I will ask another question. How do the actions of Maximilan Kolbe a.k.a. prisoner 16670 at Auschwitz fit into the debate of free will or illusion or free will?

If anyone is not familiar with Maximilan Kolbe here is a website which covers the basic events.

auschwitz.dk/Kolbe.htm

God bless
 
Free will is the human ability to go against our natural instincts for survival.
This is not true. You don’t need a free will to be courageous and brave. It has actually nothing to do with free will, except for feeling you’ve chosen to act that way. Feeling of free will is all “free will” you will ever find in real life. There is soooo many examples of animals acting heorically to save their masters. Did they choose to do that? If they didn’t choose to act bravely, would they be cowards?

When you examine if foundation of this feeling is true, you’ll find it’s an illusion. You can do it right now.
How does one make a ‘‘decision without free will’’? This is an honest question. As I understand matters it would not be a decision, but merely a prompt (i.e. when a person touches a hot object they generally move their hand off the hot object).

I will ask another question. How do the actions of Maximilan Kolbe a.k.a. prisoner 16670 at Auschwitz fit into the debate of free will or illusion or free will?

God bless
One doesn’t make a decision without free will. Decisions are being made automatically and always has been, only mind sticking “I” to every action AFTER it has been decided creates illusion of free will.

HIghwayhound, if you were in Maximilian Kolbe’s shoes, and by “you” I mean “if you WERE him”, there is no way you would have acted differently. There is no special piece of you that could stay separated from what Maximilian has been through and what influenced him up to the point where he did what he did for his fellow man.

I swear to you man. If you were him, you would do what he did. No need to take it personally… and believe me, being brave ultimately not being decision of his free will doesn’t mean what he did didn’t matter and didn’t made difference nor that it isn’t amazing. It mattered to guy’s wife he reunited with. It is amazing. It is god’s grace if you want to call it that, I don’t see why not.

Only the idea that he had to chose what he did for it to matter and be astounding… that is very shallow and superficial. And lazy conclusion.
 
Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Free will is the human ability to go against our natural instincts for survival.
This is not true. You don’t need a free will to be courageous and brave. It has actually nothing to do with free will, except for feeling you’ve chosen to act that way. Feeling of free will is all “free will” you will ever find in real life. There is soooo many examples of animals acting heorically to save their masters. Did they choose to do that? If they didn’t choose to act bravely, would they be cowards?
Free will is an ability or function of the spiritual principle in human nature. Our natural instinct for survival is an ability or function of the material principle in human nature.

Please notice that I used human in my original statement: “Free will is the human ability to go against our natural instincts for survival.” I did not mention the many examples of animals acting heroically.

Perhaps, I should clarify my position. I am using the Catholic definition of human nature which is that human nature is an unique unification of *both *the material *and *spiritual worlds.
 
No, it’s not odd at all. And you were not destined to do anything. Who would destine you to do it? It just happened, because conditions for it to happen were there.

Please, don’t confuse determinism with fatalism. Decisions made without free will still have consequences and they still matter. It’s called “illusion of free will” for a good reason. Because if it is true that there is no free will, it has always been true. And see how well it worked out.

This is nothing but a display of incredible human arrogance regarding our place in this world. We need to be separated and in control. Good luck with that mate.

And no, I don’t think I was exaggerating when I said this would undermine foundations of (not only) Christianity. If life is one big flow and feeling of separation and free will are as well nothing but part of this flow, how would judging of sins work?

How would original sin make any sense at all without a free will? All would fall down.
Whether there is a person who is determining your actions or simply the laws of physics is irrelevant. Your actions are determined the same either way. In this case, you were fated/determined to post that exact response to me, including any possible gramatical or spelling errors you made.

What are you talking about incredible human arrogance? Arrogance is meaningless in your conception of the universe except as an explanation of a state of the universe in a particular place and time. I am just a collection of physical and chemical reactions, and I have no control over how I behave. If I am arrogant, it is because the physical and chemical reactions made me so. I can’t choose to participate in this discussion, it is a state and process of the universe as a whole. It is determined by laws of physics that are beyond my control.

It is a bit ironic that the universe led itself (particularly me and you at this moment) to question its own power over itself. It is very odd that from the big bang we were fated to have this conversation about whether we are free. It strikes me as a contradiction in physics that the universe would question itself. What was once unconscious became conscious of its own slavery to its own laws.
 
No, it’s not odd at all. And you were not destined to do anything. Who would destine you to do it? It just happened, because conditions for it to happen were there.

Please, don’t confuse determinism with fatalism. Decisions made without free will still have consequences and they still matter. It’s called “illusion of free will” for a good reason. Because if it is true that there is no free will, it has always been true. And see how well it worked out.

This is nothing but a display of incredible human arrogance regarding our place in this world. We need to be separated and in control. Good luck with that mate.

And no, I don’t think I was exaggerating when I said this would undermine foundations of (not only) Christianity. If life is one big flow and feeling of separation and free will are as well nothing but part of this flow, how would judging of sins work?

How would original sin make any sense at all without a free will? All would fall down.
Yes, decisions made without free will matter and they have their affect, but they didn’t involve free will so they were determined, destined and fated. The physical laws of the universe destined me to respond with these exact words. They will have their consequences, but those are simply the product of a series of chemical and physical reactions that are beyond my control. No free will, just physics.

It’s like an Organic Chemistry equation; if you stick certain compounds in, they will produce certain products without variability in specific quantities. Same with the universe on the scale of human life. You stick in certain substrates or conditions it will produce a definite product without any variability. We have no free will or choice so the product will come no matter what our feeling on the matter is.

And that is another oddity about our universe. It can actually have feelings of contempt or distress about its lack of freedom over itself.
 
So I came across some articles about scientists claiming/proving that humans don’t have free will and free will is just an illusion.

Are these claims held by the majority of scientists or just a few odd people?

Even if it was proven that our mind doesnt use free will does that mean we don’t have free will? like our soul has the free will?

I’m really freaked out by this and the only thing keeping me from going nuts with this is my faith and trust in the church’s teaching on man having free will! I’m trying to take the word of Jesus and his church over the word of fallible scientists

Any comments for this? Am I overreacting?
Should be as clear as mud by this time. Just hold fast to your Catechism lessons. 👍
 
Did they choose to do that? If they didn’t choose to act bravely, would they be cowards?
Concepts like bravery or cowardice do not belong to animals. It is exactly because animals do things without being conscious of any such-like significance, whereas we do, that delineates us from the animals. An animal is only “brave” or “cowardly” in reference and analogously to man, who establishes or recognizes the criteria for the virtue of “braveness,” or its absence even to the point of its opposite vice, “cowardice.”

It is, moreover, not incongruant with a survival instinct for an animal to risk itself for its “master”: master, for many animals, is also my source of food; whereas, human beings will risk their lives even to save animals, even when the existence or non-existence of that animal is completely irrelevant to my own survival.

Furthermore, it would be absurd to claim that a human risking himself to save an animal is the result of natural instinct: man can act on reason devoid of or even, most conspicously, in spite of instinct or emotion, which reasoning we can judge either to be good or bad, correct or faulty. Consequently we have concepts or categories like bravery or virtue that go beyond any comparison in a simple animal.
I swear to you man. If you were him, you would do what he did.
Yes, but if the poster were actually Maxilimian, then the poster’s identity and personal free will would no longer exist; and this is no wonder at all that, consequently, Maximilian’s decisions ended up being the same: because there was no change in the first place, since the poster would actually be Maximilian.

On the other hand, if the poster were to (as it were) somehow “supplant” or replace (or possess) Maximilian, then whatever peculiar characteristics of the poster that constituted his unique identity would replace those counterparts of Maximilian. In this situation, it would be wrong to identify the possessed Maximilian as Maximilian: he would, in fact, be a different person. Denying this would mean that we shouldn’t just refuse to attribute actions or decisions to individuals, but moreover we should even refuse to name or identify them, since a person is by no means unique since, according to your theory, any person would do what any other does or has done: Ghandi would have invaded Iraq had he somehow been George W. Bush, and Mother Theressa would have made a killing and put all other things aside had she been Donald Trump.

In sum, it would become absurd to (i) attribute actions to individuals and (ii) to identify individuals at all, since all individuals are by no means in this theory actually unique or even different, except at best accidentally (i.e., superficially), but are in fact each of them the result of a blind force that compels them absolutely to make certain decisions or not.

Furthermore, your swearing to this cannot and does not alter anything; unless, of course, you want us to believe that you have actually enjoyed the unique privilege of “supplanting” Maximilian, yet notwithstanding found yourself utterly incapable of making any different decisions or choices than what Maximilian actually made: in which case, you must have felt rather more like a mere passenger than actually like Maximilian, because Maximilian certainly did not feel (anymore than we do) absolutely bound to do certain things. In which case your theory would be proven wrong, because unlike now, you felt differently: now you at least feel like you can make a choice, but if you supplanted Maximilian, you wouldn’t even feel that, unless you are also going to argue that our entire experience of any sensation is itself also a gigantic illusion: e.g., of fear or compassion or any other affection whatsoever that influence, or can influence, our decisions.
 
No need to take it personally… and believe me, being brave ultimately not being decision of his free will doesn’t mean what he did didn’t matter and didn’t made difference
It most certainly does make a difference: if Maximilian did not have free will, then it becomes absurd to attribute his admitted bravery to him; it was and is not in any way or sense actually attributable to him, “he” (Maximilian) was just fortunate enough to be as-it-were incarnated as that man we call and know as Maximilian, whose destiny and fate was decided and determined, and which he was powerless to do or “accomplish” anything else or but.
nor that it isn’t amazing.
I believe it would be amazing: it would mean that the human race has literally been speaking nonsense for all of its history by ridiculously attributing to others or ourselves certain choices, decisions or actions. Now try telling the high-schooler who is scared senseless to ask Suzy out on a date that it doesn’t matter and he shouldn’t fret: whether he will or not has already been decided. Most likely, this will cause our shy student who was trying to work-up the nerve to overcome his fear to give-up entirely and simply “let fate decide.” I suppose, conversely and depending on the state we find this student in or the point we find him at, he might as well just finally make the leap; but it would seem in this instance that he had effectivelty already made up his mind, and this information just gave him the courage to proceed, or at least he interpreted it as meaning he should take courage, and took it.

But a problem arises: the student acknowledges that Suzy has a choice : he may be fated to put the question to her (or not), but he can scarcely believe that Suzy is fated to say either yes or no. Moreover, if this is the case, then we should be able to not only predict all human action and behaviour, but even determine who will do what and exactly when.

Notwithstanding, who would be so absurd to deny that this information has influenced our student’s decision by his mere consideration of it? Or, if this student is a little bright, he might just disregard it outright as scepticism taken to its most absurd extremes, simply because he both knows and feels that he must make a difficult decision. Further, he acknowledges that some part of him is problematic to his ultimate will or desire: i.e., to ask Suzy out. His experience tells him that he must overcome something latent within him that, left to itself, would assuredly determine the outcome: i.e., his not asking Suzy out. His very experience for him exposes the absurdity of our claiming that he hasn’t actually any real personal choice or decision in the matter, because he knows full well that he does have it within his power to overcome his fear and make the brave decision.

But if we deny free-will, then irrespective of this, the student has made no decision or choice whatsoever: i.e., it is outright wrong to say that the student did or didn’t choose or decide to ask Suzy out on a date; rather, we would have to say the laws of physics (or the universe or whatever) made that decision. In fine, if we deny free will, then we immediately collapse into absurdity and our speech becomes pointless nonsense.
Only the idea that he had to chose what he did for it to matter and be astounding… that is very shallow and superficial. And lazy conclusion.
I think more truly superficial would be a universe devoid of human free will: it would become a mere illusion, which idea is rather closer to the idea of superficial.

To sum up,
When the wind blows, and we observe a leaf falling from a tree, do we attribute this change to the action or influence of the wind, or to the leaf itself? Manifestly we would call anyone a dunce who thinks that a gust of wind wasn’t primary for causing the leaf to fall, but that the leaf caused itself to fall. If we don’t have free will, then attributing any decision or action to a human being as such is likewise absurd because he doesn’t actually have a choice in the matter.
 
I have never come across a compelling argument for free will.

When your car breaks down and you take it to a mechanic, a good mechanic won’t tell you, “there is no reason why the car broke down, it just did”, they may tell you, “I don’t know why it broke down, but that is because I am yet to find out why”. Naturally enough, there has to be a cause for the breakdown, perhaps the tire blew out, or the radiator overheated. While humans are infinitely more complex, they are still subject to the causal chain of the universe and it will be significantly difficult to find what caused certain actions, but neural processes are not magical and we are getting better at understanding them. To believe that we are completely free to chose, is to believe that at some point, within our brains, the causal chain breaks and that we may chose a completely random and sporadic outcome. Freewill is an illusion, albeit a very convincing one.
 
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