Freakonomics: more abortions means fewer crimes!

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I added the information about the tv show in reply to your post. It’s a discussion. Folks are going to add information and points of view.

Oh, and I note that you omitted this part: “Finally he hit on abortion.”

Speaking about correlation: what’s the big deal about suppressing the studies linking breast cancer to abortion?
What? I thought that was from your 1st post. That was what jumped out at me when I first read this thread. I’m VERY annoyed when causality is confused with correlation - it happens all too often. That’s the only reason I replied to this thread, and that’s the only thing I’m discussing.

I omitted the part about abortion because it came AFTER the point I was trying to make.

I have very little knowledge of the abortion / breast cancer link, so I cannot comment.
 
What? I thought that was from your 1st post. That was what jumped out at me when I first read this thread. I’m VERY annoyed when causality is confused with correlation - it happens all too often. That’s the only reason I replied to this thread, and that’s the only thing I’m discussing.

I omitted the part about abortion because it came AFTER the point I was trying to make.

I have very little knowledge of the abortion / breast cancer link, so I cannot comment.
Causality should not be confused with correlation. Correlation is difficult enough to demonstrate.
 
Look, if folks kill 45M unborn babies, the law of probability suggests that a goodly number of those unborn babies might have been criminals had they lived. Simply because the overall population was reduced. Reduce the population, reduce the number of criminals in it.

Levitt, however, goes further. Levitt suggests that many of those who don’t make it out of the womb were in some way predestined to be criminals.

This is very Calvinist.
Calvinism [claimed that] if God had predestined an elect to salvation, and all other men to damnation from the beginning of time and regardless of their merits, this elect did not form a community, because its membership was unknown and unknowable…
Luther’s was a religion of free enterprise, Calvin’s of capital accumulation. In such a system as the Calvinist theocracies… the poor were convicted prima-facie by their situation. Every member of the elite might not be a member of the elect, but the poor, and especially the indigent poor, obviously were not. The incompetent, the wastrel, the drunkard, and all those who lived only for pleasure rather than profit were self-evidently damned…
read more
Note that the majority of the abortuaries are located in poor, non-white neighbourhoods:
Several years ago, when 17,000 aborted babies were found in a dumpster outside a pathology laboratory in Los, Angeles, California, some 12-15,000 were observed to be black…

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion…

A highly significant 1993 Howard University study showed that African American women over age 50 were 4.7 times more likely to get breast cancer if they had had any abortions compared to women who had not had any abortions… link
 
Let’s take that to the logical conclusion, okay? Why not kill even the kids that are born, especially in the poor neighborhoods where they don’t have much hope? Then the crime rate would go WAAAAY down, right? I mean, come on! This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. :rolleyes: Disgusting!

What about studies on how abortion affects how people think about life and other people? How can it not make you harder and more willing to treat people like things?
 
Look, if folks kill 45M unborn babies, the law of probability suggests that a goodly number of those unborn babies might have been criminals had they lived. Simply because the overall population was reduced. Reduce the population, reduce the number of criminals in it.
Of course. Naturally, the law of probability also suggests that a goodly number of those unborn babies might have been geniuses, too.

As we lie dying a painful death from cancer, or some other implacable disease, we can mediate there is a good chance that the person God sent to discover a cure for our disease was flushed down the sink in an abortion clinic.
 
Of course. Naturally, the law of probability also suggests that a goodly number of those unborn babies might have been geniuses, too.

As we lie dying a painful death from cancer, or some other implacable disease, we can mediate there is a good chance that the person God sent to discover a cure for our disease was flushed down the sink in an abortion clinic.
But what if most of them are not geniuses? What if we have a method to “select” the “genius” babies, and we are able to discard those who aren’t? Would you advocate that method?

I do not think it is prudent to base human worth on intelligence (I used to think otherwise) although I most certainly accept the validity of certain studies that conclude the psychometric intelligence is inversely correlated with human misery. I am simply a misanthrope now who doubts humanity has the ability to solve its problems; maybe cybernetics is the answer.

I do not think there is an easy answer; I wonder how “unwanted” babies could be understood and loved in such a cruel world. Would precluding their existence be a viable answer? It would certainly obviate human suffering. But maybe technology will provide an answer to this imbroglio though; I would regret advocating the right for parents to abort fetuses afflicted with Down syndrome (or any other hereditary or congenital disease) if a legitimate cure is available in about two decades or so.

I would also regret that they would miss the eudamonia of the technological singularity (an epoch of human enhancement and the elimination of poverity) because they were aborted.
 
But what if most of them are not geniuses?
Well, that’s just about the definition of “genius,” isn’t it, someone who’s way smarter than just about everyone else.😛
What if we have a method to “select” the “genius” babies, and we are able to discard those who aren’t? Would you advocate that method?
If we’re going to start killing people for not being geniuses, a whole bunch of us better start picking out coffins.😛
I do not think it is prudent to base human worth on intelligence
Well, thank God!!
(I used to think otherwise) although I most certainly accept the validity of certain studies that conclude the psychometric intelligence is inversely correlated with human misery. I am simply a misanthrope now who doubts humanity has the ability to solve its problems; maybe cybernetics is the answer.
And maybe it isn’t.

We have some help, you know, when it comes to solving our problems – He left us some very good advice.
I do not think there is an easier answer; I wonder how “unwanted” babies could be understood and loved in such a cruel world. Would precluding their existence be a viable answer?
Go into an institution that houses “unwanted” babies and ask them if they want to be put to death. My guess is they’ll say no.

That being the case, who are we to decide for them?
It would certainly obviate human suffering.
Everyone who lives must suffer at some time or other? Should we wipe out the whole human race to “prevent suffering?”
But maybe technology will provide an answer to this imbroglio though; I would regret advocating the right for parents to abort fetuses afflicted with Down syndrome (or any other hereditary or congenital disease) if a legitimate cure is available in about two decades or so.
Cure or no cure, the killing of an innocent human being is murder.

My first granddaughter was supposed to have Down’s Syndrome – my daughter refused an amniocentisis, because as she said, “It holds some risk for the baby. And if it does have Down’s Syndrome, there’s nothing we can do about it anyway.”

I was never so proud of my daughter. Fortunately, the test was in error, and our grandaughter was born perfect.
I would also regret that they would miss the eudamonia of the technological singularity (an epoch of human enhancement and the elimination of poverity) because they were aborted.
I regret that they miss life itself because of abortion.
 
Well, that’s just about the definition of “genius,” isn’t it, someone who’s way smarter than just about everyone else.😛

If we’re going to start killing people for not being geniuses, a whole bunch of us better start picking out coffins.😛

Well, thank God!!

And maybe it isn’t.

We have some help, you know, when it comes to solving our problems – He left us some very good advice.

Go into an institution that houses “unwanted” babies and ask them if they want to be put to death. My guess is they’ll say no.
Well, we have to remember that conscious humans have a natural predilection towards self preservation. It is also worth noting that Peter Singer respects and emphasizes this. However, according to Singer, fetuses do not have this.
Everyone who lives must suffer at some time or other? Should we wipe out the whole human race to “prevent suffering?”
Cure or no cure, the killing of an innocent human being is murder.
I regret that they miss life itself because of abortion.
Guess I can’t spell. Eudaimonia!!!

I am not concerned about the rights of women in the case of abortion. In contrast, most people who advocate abortion usually want to make this point salient. For example, on IIDB many posters there accept that one can abort a fetus for “genetic defects” such as disomy X (figure out what "disomy X is 🙂 because it is a women’s choice and body. I am adverse to invoking abortion for such frivilous reasons. However, I am a staunch abolitionist and utilitarian, and I do approve of actions that are congruent with the aforementioned ethical systems.

I do not understand why it is so important to preserve a fetus… one needs to understand that life isn’t such a blessing and it is usually cruel, unfair, and unjust, and few people get what they deserve. Currently, we can do little to rectify this.

But I am starting to have qualms about abortion because of the material I read by Ray Kurzweil and Eric Drexler.
 
Well, we have to remember that conscious humans have a natural predilection towards self preservation. It is also worth noting that Peter Singer respects and emphasizes this. However, according to Singer, fetuses do not have this.
That’s kind of like saying, “according to Hitler, Jews do not have this.”
I am not concerned about the rights of women in the case of abortion. In contrast, most people who advocate abortion usually want to make this point salient. For example, on IIDB many posters there accept that one can abort a fetus for “genetic defects” such as disomy X (figure out what "disomy X is 🙂 because it is a women’s choice and body. I am adverse to invoking abortion for such frivilous reasons. However, I am a staunch abolitionist and utilitarian, and I do approve of actions that are congruent with the aforementioned ethical systems.
Utilitiarianism is the idea that a human being’s worth is what he or she contributes to society. A young woman is worth a great deal – her 95 year old grandmother with Alzheimers is worthless and should be put down.

A homeless person on drugs is woth nothing. A day laborer is worth very little. A businessman who employs others and produces goods for the rest of us is worth a great deal.

Utilitiarianism is not compatible with Catholicism.
I do not understand why it is so important to preserve a fetus…
Because it is a living human being and has as much right to live as you or I.
one needs to understand that life isn’t such a blessing and it is usually cruel, unfair, and unjust, and few people get what they deserve. Currently, we can do little to rectify this.
And this revelation just came over you? Let me explain – the rest of us live, too. We have eyes to see and ears to hear. We know what life is about, too. We know all about pain and injustice – it isn’t something that only one person knows.

Go to those who you think should have been aborted and ask them if they want you to kill them. If they say no, who are you to decide for them?
But I am starting to have qualms about abortion because of the material I read by Ray Kurzweil and Eric Drexler.
It’s nice to know that you can have qualms about mass murder.
 
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ribozyme:
…one needs to understand that life isn’t such a blessing…
For some. And, if you could infallibly prove that life is not a blessing for certain individuals, then what?

Thing is you can’t do this for the unborn. Maybe for ten-year-olds or thirty-year-olds. Then what? Post-partum abortions?
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ribozyme:
…and it is usually cruel, unfair, and unjust…
For some.
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ribozyme:
and few people get what they deserve.
Do aborted babies get what they deserve?
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ribozyme:
Currently, we can do little to rectify this.
Please quantify ‘little’.
 
Pro-abortion researchers frequently try to claim that abortion will decrease child abuse, divorce, violent children, etc. because all babies will be “wanted.” This argument was also used for legalizing contraceptives.

Since contraceptives were legalized in this country, child abuse has skyrocketed. Divorce went from practically nonexsistant to 50% of all new marriages (and growing up in a fatherless home is the main predictor for criminal activity later in life). Sexual abuse and assault has skyrocketed. Violence among the young is up drastically. Post-abortive mothers frequently have difficulty bonding to later children because of their guilt over their dead child (leading to more unloved children, not fewer). Infanticide is nothing odd anymore; several dead babies were found in this area a year or so back and I don’t think they managed to even prosecute, much less convict, anyone. Earlier this year, a woman shot herself in the stomach shortly after her labor pains started, then claimed she’d been attacked… she got barely a slap on the wrist, but only because she filed a false police report. (And then read a “loving” poem at her baby’s funeral… )

The presence of abortion in such staggering numbers has made violence more likely, not less. If some people don’t matter, who does? And Margaret Sanger would be very happy with the racist implications of saying that aborting poor minority babies makes the world a better place.
 
Pro-abortion researchers frequently try to claim that abortion will decrease child abuse, divorce, violent children, etc. because all babies will be “wanted.” .
And there are pederasts who claim that children really “want it.” Those who tell us some children will be better off dead deserve the same respect.
 
I would have thought the opposite is true. Abortion leads to more family breakdown, which influences higher crime rates, worse health, lower education standards. Also, a leading psychologist, Philip Ney, says that when he has interviewed disturbed children, very often he finds that there has been an abortion in the family, sometimes that the sibling has never been told about.
 
As much as I either disagree with the premise on this thread or could care less about someone’s recent attempt at statistics, it is good to read here so many strong arguments in favor of life. We really have no way of knowing if such a thing as abortion means fewer “crimes”. However, the legalization and then the commercialization of abortion, still a sad crime, has brought with it a lot of “Newspeak” baggage: “unwanted”, “simply terminate”, “dispose of”, “individual choice”, “selective fertilization”, “genetic planning”, “family planning”, “Planned Parenthood”, even the euphemistic “women’s health”, “women’s reproductive freedom” “women’s right to choose”…so many words whose meanings are so much different than what they once were. It has made my head reel to realize how our “languaging” has so drastically changed the meaning of words and concepts I once knew.

And individual lives, families, and communities have also been turned inside out and stripped of their meaning.

“Mass murder” became “genocide” which became “ethnic cleansing”. Each time the label changed it got cleaner and tidier. Do our minds then change because the old can of lies bears a shiny new label?

I still see abortion as a crime so I think there are MORE crimes, not less.

How does one define the word “crime” now? The Black population in the U.S., for example, diminishes greatly by murder before and after one is born and that is a crime. More abortions mean more disposal of human lives, more irresponsibility and lack of accountability, children missing a father or mother; more children self-destructing as they ponder whether they are “wanted” or not…dehumanizing sex, more attempts to ignore our strong life force, minimizing procreation while maximizing sexual impulsivity, more denying God, more deifying ourselves. I call it a crime.
auntieonomics: more abortions mean more crimes.
 
They’ve had John Lott on BookTV again this weekend. Check your schedule.
 
Ever notice that the people who like abortion the most seem to want them for OTHER people and OTHER groups?

And even more, its a lot easier to be for abortion now that you’re already born, don’t you think? It’s sick, sick, sick.

I get more sick when I see “religious” people trying to back up abortion. What God are they praying to anyway?

:eek:
 
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