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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Who checked the laws which the Indians lived by?
An issue of consent, - will they have my consent so open the border
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Ilroy
Guest
See my earlier post…the Indians welcomed the pilgrims.
So, you are willing to be completely responsible for them as well? They can live with you? You will make sure they work and contribute to society? You will make sure they have health care insurance?
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randomguy0187
Guest
A small point of order regarding the “Native American” analogy: it’s sorta important to remember that the people in this category (and in fact other categories, i.e. Asians are not all Japanese) are not a homogeneous group: they are part of distinct tribes that had (and to an extent, still have) their own laws and values. So, judging whether pilgrims’ presence would be “illegal” or “welcome” would have to be specified by tribe (that could be a long exercise). 
Though I do think it’s been pointed out that it is a weak analogy anyways, I just had to comment because it’s a pet peeve for me when broad sweeping generalizations are made without acknowledgment of possible differences.
I do think that the immigration issue needs to take a more holistic approach than “closing the borders.”
For example (and these are questions I’ve honestly been looking into), in what ways can the US develop its relationships with other countries to address the issue? Are their economic policies that would encourage these countries to develop their own economies and increase the quality of life?
Are there things in immigration policy that we can do to make legal immigration simpler, faster, and secure? What things can we do on our end that make it easier to assimilate? (I’d like to clarify that I believe that fitting into US society doesn’t necessarily mean one has to give up their own culture: i.e. you can still speak your native language, but you really need to learn English)
Also, what are we doing to secure our borders other than building a wall? As many probably already know, there are ways to have illegal status in the US other than crossing the Mexican border: one example that comes to mind is staying in the country after one’s visa has expired.
What is our responsibility to the children of illegal immigrants, who through no choice of their own are in the US? Do we punish them for the wrongdoing of the parents? Would it be the right thing to do to deport parents and break up families?
To make it clear, I’m not expecting answers to these questions here in this thread. I just want to highly encourage (not just on this board, but even with people I talk to every day) that we as a nation strive towards a holistic approach in addressing the issue, because in the end, I think most of us will agree that it’s important to have a secure border, but at the same time it’s important that our country be welcoming to those who want a better life and are willing to contribute to and become a part of our nation. And I think we as a people, and our leaders in government, are up to the challenge
God Bless America 
Though I do think it’s been pointed out that it is a weak analogy anyways, I just had to comment because it’s a pet peeve for me when broad sweeping generalizations are made without acknowledgment of possible differences.I do think that the immigration issue needs to take a more holistic approach than “closing the borders.”
For example (and these are questions I’ve honestly been looking into), in what ways can the US develop its relationships with other countries to address the issue? Are their economic policies that would encourage these countries to develop their own economies and increase the quality of life?
Are there things in immigration policy that we can do to make legal immigration simpler, faster, and secure? What things can we do on our end that make it easier to assimilate? (I’d like to clarify that I believe that fitting into US society doesn’t necessarily mean one has to give up their own culture: i.e. you can still speak your native language, but you really need to learn English)
Also, what are we doing to secure our borders other than building a wall? As many probably already know, there are ways to have illegal status in the US other than crossing the Mexican border: one example that comes to mind is staying in the country after one’s visa has expired.
What is our responsibility to the children of illegal immigrants, who through no choice of their own are in the US? Do we punish them for the wrongdoing of the parents? Would it be the right thing to do to deport parents and break up families?
To make it clear, I’m not expecting answers to these questions here in this thread. I just want to highly encourage (not just on this board, but even with people I talk to every day) that we as a nation strive towards a holistic approach in addressing the issue, because in the end, I think most of us will agree that it’s important to have a secure border, but at the same time it’s important that our country be welcoming to those who want a better life and are willing to contribute to and become a part of our nation. And I think we as a people, and our leaders in government, are up to the challenge
God Bless America
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
all Indians every single one? even warring tribes agreed?
I’ll accept the same responsiblity for them as I accept for you, and you for me.
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Ilroy
Guest
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Newbie2
Guest
HUH??? Since when did illegal immigration become a violent crime??? Bzzzt. Your analogy is weak, therefore your premise cannot be strong.What’s to develop? It’s a bogus proposition.
I disagree with your assertion that “If the anology is weak, the premise cannot be strong.” as a general rule.
Do you consider rape to be a serious crime?
The difference between illegal and legal immigration is the difference between rape and consentual sex.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
What’s violence got to do with it? The issue is consent – of the woman in the case of sex, of the United States in the case of immigration.HUH??? Since when did illegal immigration become a violent crime??? Bzzzt. Your analogy is weak, therefore your premise cannot be strong.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
not at all your the one claiming you can pick and choose laws from 1400-1800 however today no picking and choosing allowed. Or if said honestly it is We can pick whether to obey their laws however they have no choice on our laws. For a reference you may want to read the “Trail of Tears”
We should change our laws as they are not well written on the subject
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I suggest it is not so much a matter of our laws not being well-written as not being well-enforced.
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Ilroy
Guest
No picking and choosing…there simply were no laws forbidding the pilgrims to come here…how hard is that to understand. If there was a tribe that didn’t want someone in their area what happened? The tribe simply killed the encroachers.
As to changing our laws, your statement is simply an opinion…and if a correct opinion, work to change the laws, DON’T encourage the breaking of them.
I think the speed limit laws should be changed, but if I break them, I’m still getting a ticket…you break the law you suffer the consequences plain and simple.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Excellent post – clear and well-reasoned.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
How do you know " there simply were no laws forbidding the pilgrims to come here" ?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Because we know quite a bit about the tribes in question.
To correct a misimpression, the Pilgrims were not the first English settlers. A first attempt to settle in North America, the Roanoke settlement in what is now North Carolina, vanished. They did, however, have friendly relations with the tribe occupying the land where they settled, and there is some evidence that the descendants of those settlers live on in the Lumbee indians, who back in the early 18th Century were using family names corresponding to those of the colonists.
The next attempt was successful – Jamestown in 1607. The Jamestown settlers were not forbidden by the powerful Powhatan Confederacy, and traded with them. Powhatan demanded they build him an English-style house in return, and Powhatan’s Chimney still stands on the banks of the York River.
Now, the burden of proof is on those who claim that “the indians” did have such laws. Otherwise, all arguments would end with someone making an outlandish claim with no evidence, and then demanding everyone else prove him wrong.
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Ilroy
Guest
My mom was there…she’s old. And I googled for immigratioin laws from the 1400’s forward.
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Newbie2
Guest
Well, your analogy uses rape, which is a violent crime. I counter that what rape is to consensual intercourse is not the same is what illegal immigration is to legal immigration.
Just a poor analogy, methinks, to illustrate your point about consent.
But a nice try, anyhow.
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mschrank
Guest
Um, ever hear of the Ft. Dearborn Massacre?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Nice dodge, but no cigar.Well, your analogy uses rape, which is a violent crime. I counter that what rape is to consensual intercourse is not the same is what illegal immigration is to legal immigration.
Just a poor analogy, methinks, to illustrate your point about consent.
But a nice try, anyhow.
Nice try, anyhow.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
References please 1) You know what the “Powhatan Confederacy” laws were 2) The proof the “Powhatan’s” spoke for all Indians.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
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vern_humphrey
Guest
There are plenty of contemporary records of the English colonists’ dealings with Powhatan. They give us a clear picture of the customs and practices of him and his people.
They didn’t have to speak for all indians – they only had to speak for themselves.
Now, how about you giving some evidence that the Powhatan Confederacy had immigration laws?
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