Free Grace Salvation

[aidanbradypop]

“We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit. Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline. While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.”

Any oppose the above?

Being the Episcopalian that I am, I can agree with this and I believe many others can as well.

 

[bilop]

Yes. This,

Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God.

is wrong. Plenty of believers lose their salvation through sin. Satan and all the fallen angels believed, yet they still fell.

And this,

While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.

smacks of heresy. Good works are necessary for salvation.

Look at St. Matthew, Ch 25.

[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Could Christ be more clear that good works are necessary for salvation?

The “cursed” aren’t being damned because they lacked sufficient faith, or grace. They are being damned because they had no good works.

God Bless

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes. This,

God Bless

Great post!

This is how I see it and tell me if you concur.

We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit. Our salvation is ONLY by Grace…now that salvation comes in a lot of way…baptism, the sacraments, confession…etc. all of which we have by the Grace of God. Our faith in God and Church comes by way of Grace. The part about “apart from any human merit” means that we ALONE cannot merit salvation it is by our faith and the Grace of God we can only hope for such a salvation.

Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Salvation is a free gift. We have to personally believe in order for our faith to grow and be open to the Grace of God. I am not big on the “sinners prayer.” Just throwing that out there lol

Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline. This can be confusing if you relate it to OSAS. Our salvation is secure through Christ, yet we can damage our fellowship with God and bring out that discipline. Whether that could be purgatory or what have you. Yes I am an Episcopalian that believes in purgatory.

While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation. Although a bit vague, this does not go against Church teachings. Good works alone do not save (ask the Pharisees) but as St James pointed our…faith without works is a dead faith. So as the above states, charity is evidence of salvation.

 

[bilop]

Great post!

This is how I see it and tell me if you concur.

We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit. Our salvation is ONLY by Grace…now that salvation comes in a lot of way…baptism, the sacraments, confession…etc. all of which we have by the Grace of God. Our faith in God and Church comes by way of Grace. The part about “apart from any human merit” means that we ALONE cannot merit salvation it is by our faith and the Grace of God we can only hope for such a salvation.

Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Salvation is a free gift. We have to personally believe in order for our faith to grow and be open to the Grace of God. I am not big on the “sinners prayer.” Just throwing that out there lol

Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline. This can be confusing if you relate it to OSAS. Our salvation is secure through Christ, yet we can damage our fellowship with God and bring out that discipline. Whether that could be purgatory or what have you. Yes I am an Episcopalian that believes in purgatory.

While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation. Although a bit vague, this does not go against Church teachings. Good works alone do not save (ask the Pharisees) but as St James pointed our…faith without works is a dead faith. So as the above states, charity is evidence of salvation.

I would state it this way.

Grace is a free gift of God, and is absolutely necessary for salvation. But, we believe that God gives every person sufficient Grace to be saved (otherwise we end up with Calvinist pre-destination).

So, what takes us from Grace to salvation? It is our faith, and our works (broadly defined). We need to cooperate with God’s Grace by 1) believing in Christ and 2) doing good (obeying the commandments, being charitable, etc.).

Good works can not bring salvation by themselves, but, motivated by faith, are a necessary cooperation in the Grace given by God.

God Bless

 

[aidanbradypop]

I would state it this way.

Grace is a free gift of God, and is absolutely necessary for salvation. But, we believe that God gives every person sufficient Grace to be saved (otherwise we end up with Calvinist pre-destination).

So, what takes us from Grace to salvation? It is our faith, and our works (broadly defined). We need to cooperate with God’s Grace by 1) believing in Christ and 2) doing good (obeying the commandments, being charitable, etc.).

Good works can not bring salvation by themselves, but, motivated by faith, are a necessary cooperation in the Grace given by God.

God Bless

I cannot argue with that. Wonderfully stated and I believe you are saying the exact same as they stated. Just coming at it from different angles maybe.

 

[TheLastWord]

Be careful with terms like faith only.-

In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – **continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, **for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.

James 2:14-26 (New King James Version)

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Pretty much stated all the above but thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[TRH1292]

Things like this are tricky. Words can be used in multiple ways, and in just a short space, two people could agree on the statement but then interpret it in radically different ways.

"We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit.

In and of itself, I agree with the statement. But a protestant might interpret that to exclude the Sacraments, or something of that nature.

Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins.

Again, in and of itself, I agree with the statement as I understand it. But of course, I don’t believe God’s Grace comes to us through just thin air or the mind. I believe it is also conveyed through the Sacraments, which we then respond to with Faith.

Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline.

No, I don’t believe I can agree with this in any sense. This pretty clearly seems to be the teaching of “Once Saved Always Saved”. Our salvation is secure in the sense that God loves us. But we can and often do reject God. The power of God does not overwhelm our freewill to reject him. We do not just mar our fellowship with God, we can lose it all together.

While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation."

Again, I don’t believe it is possible for a Catholic to agree with this. Good Works are not evidence of Salvation, an optional add on. They are in fact a part of it.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Things like this are tricky. Words can be used in multiple ways, and in just a short space, two people could agree on the statement but then interpret it in radically different ways.

I agree

In and of itself, I agree with the statement. But a protestant might interpret that to exclude the Sacraments, or something of that nature.

Not all but probably true for most fundamentalist

Again, in and of itself, I agree with the statement as I understand it. But of course, I don’t believe God’s Grace comes to us through just thin air or the mind. I believe it is also conveyed through the Sacraments, which we then respond to with Faith.

Agree

No, I don’t believe I can agree with this in any sense. This pretty clearly seems to be the teaching of “Once Saved Always Saved”. Our salvation is secure in the sense that God loves us. But we can and often do reject God. The power of God does not overwhelm our freewill to reject him. We do not just mar our fellowship with God, we can lose it all together.

The church I got it from may or may not be a OSAS faith. Like Anglicanism, Evangelicals can differ widely. I can see how you would get that though.

Again, I don’t believe it is possible for a Catholic to agree with this. Good Works are not evidence of Salvation, an optional add on. They are in fact a part of it.

I believe what they are starting is that even an atheist can do “good works” without a faith in God. As evidence means that when we do acts of charity with faith, they are a ministry for God and fellow man. Make sense? Many if not all Protestants do not believe charity is an addon but rather they are the fruit of the tree. A old Baptist minister explained it to me like this…a tree can proclaim to be a lemon tree yet if no lemons are ever produced then is it still a lemon tree?

 

[Kliska]

“We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit. Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline. While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.”

Any oppose the above?

Being the Episcopalian that I am, I can agree with this and I believe many others can as well.

I as a non-denom protestant agree with it. As others said, the particulars probably differ. For example, I’m one that does not believe sin can ever separate us from Jesus once we are part of Him.

 

[TRH1292]

Not all but probably true for most fundamentalist

Yes, I see you are Anglican. I meant that many “Low Church” protestants would interpret it that way,

The church I got it from may or may not be a OSAS faith. Like Anglicanism, Evangelicals can differ widely. I can see how you would get that though.

I believe what they are starting is that even an atheist can do “good works” without a faith in God. As evidence means that when we do acts of charity with faith, they are a ministry for God and fellow man. Make sense? Many if not all Protestants do not believe charity is an addon but rather they are the fruit of the tree. A old Baptist minister explained it to me like this…a tree can proclaim to be a lemon tree yet if no lemons are ever produced then is it still a lemon tree?

Just looking at the words of the statement, I have a hard time believing that to be the case. But to really know for sure I would really just have to ask the person who wrote it for more clarification.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes, I see you are Anglican. I meant that many “Low Church” protestants would interpret it that way,

gotcha

Just looking at the words of the statement, I have a hard time believing that to be the case. But to really know for sure I would really just have to ask the person who wrote it for more clarification.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I as a non-denom protestant agree with it. As others said, the particulars probably differ. For example, I’m one that does not believe sin can ever separate us from Jesus once we are part of Him.

There is no falling away?

 

[cococandy]

“We believe that salvation comes to man only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any human merit. Salvation is a free gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Every believer’s salvation is secure, being kept by the power of God. However, a believer by disobedience can mar his fellowship with God, lose his joy, testimony and incur the Father’s loving discipline. While we do not believe good works are meritorious in obtaining salvation, we do believe that good works are an evidence of salvation.”

Any oppose the above?

Being the Episcopalian that I am, I can agree with this and I believe many others can as well.

I do not think that you would find a Baptist that would disagree with this

 

[Kliska]

There is no falling away?

To me (from what I gather from scripture), apostasy is different than sin.

 

[TRH1292]

To me (from what I gather from scripture), apostasy is different than sin.

Elaborate?

 

[Kliska]

Elaborate?

Apostasy is a deliberate turning away from God with full knowledge that that is what you are doing. In effect, nothing can snatch you out of God’s hand, but you can tell him to open it. Sin has no power over those in Christ, there remains no condemnation for those in Him. The new man is not under the Law, and what is not under the Law doesn’t have sin laid to its charge; therefore while a Christian can still commit sinful acts, they do not, cannot, separate that person from Jesus. (I’m not arguing just explaining my understanding from scripture, I fully realize this is not what the RC teaches and I know the arguments against it.)

I’m still unsure of how I feel about the idea of apostasy, it could be that if they leave they never were one of “us.” A goat amongst the sheep.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Apostasy is a deliberate turning away from God with full knowledge that that is what you are doing. In effect, nothing can snatch you out of God’s hand, but you can tell him to open it. Sin has no power over those in Christ, there remains no condemnation for those in Him. The new man is not under the Law, and what is not under the Law doesn’t have sin laid to its charge; therefore while a Christian can still commit sinful acts, they do not, cannot, separate that person from Jesus. (I’m not arguing just explaining my understanding from scripture, I fully realize this is not what the RC teaches and I know the arguments against it.)

I’m still unsure of how I feel about the idea of apostasy, it could be that if they leave they never were one of “us.” A goat amongst the sheep.

This is similar to the way I was taught growing up. I was Southern Baptist then converted to Catholicism and eventually settled in the Episcopal Church. As a Baptist, I was taught that once I said the sinner’s prayer, I was saved forever.

Much like you are saying that you can sin but never forfeit your salvation. Once you accept Christ…done deal.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Apostasy is a deliberate turning away from God with full knowledge that that is what you are doing. In effect, nothing can snatch you out of God’s hand, but you can tell him to open it. Sin has no power over those in Christ, there remains no condemnation for those in Him. The new man is not under the Law, and what is not under the Law doesn’t have sin laid to its charge; therefore while a Christian can still commit sinful acts, they do not, cannot, separate that person from Jesus. (I’m not arguing just explaining my understanding from scripture, I fully realize this is not what the RC teaches and I know the arguments against it.)

You just moved from free grace into cheap grace.

Have you met Bonhoeffer?

From Bonhoeffer “The Cost of Discipleship”

Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing….

Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian ‘conception’ of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins…. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God.

Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. ‘All for sin could not atone.’ Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin….

Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man’ will gladly go and self all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

Costly grace is the sanctuary of God; it has to be protected from the world, and not thrown to the dogs. It is therefore the living word, the Word of God, which he speaks as it pleases him. Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus. It comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

On two separate occasions Peter received the call, “Follow me.” It was the first and last word Jesus spoke to his disciple (Mark 1.17; John 21.22). A whole life lies between these two calls. The first occasion was by the lake of Gennesareth, when Peter left his nets and his craft and followed Jesus at his word. The second occasion is when the Risen Lord finds him back again at his old trade. Once again it is by the lake of Gennesareth, and once again the call is: “Follow me.” Between the two calls lay a whole life of discipleship in the following of Christ. Half-way between them comes Peter’s confession, when he acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God….

This grace was certainly not self-bestowed. It was the grace of Christ himself, now prevailing upon the disciple to leave all and follow him, now working in him that confession which to the world must sound like the ultimate blasphemy, now inviting Peter to the supreme fellowship of martyrdom for the Lord he had denied, and thereby forgiving him all his sins. In the life of Peter grace and discipleship are inseparable. He had received the grace which costs,

(pg. 45-49).

 

[Kliska]

This is similar to the way I was taught growing up. I was Southern Baptist then converted to Catholicism and eventually settled in the Episcopal Church. As a Baptist, I was taught that once I said the sinner’s prayer, I was saved forever.

Much like you are saying that you can sin but never forfeit your salvation. Once you accept Christ…done deal.

We have to make sure that the sinner’s prayer isn’t seen as what saves; there has to be repentance, which is a true mind change, along with true faith, which is trusting with great confidence. But, yes, that’s the general idea, though many would say that even apostasy doesn’t get you lost, I’m not so sure on that, because of the example of Satan.

You just moved from free grace into cheap grace.

If there is one phrase in all of Christendom that I find the most offensive it’s “cheap grace.” It spits on Jesus’ suffering and sacrifice, on Him hanging on the cross, on His life, and His Blood. There is no grace that is cheap.

Have you met Bonhoeffer?

I have indeed.