Free Healthcare

[Seeker1961]

I see you like Romneycare. I don’t know why he would shy away the greatest thing to happen to health care in a long time, but then there’s much I don’t understand about politics and politicians.

Regardless, I believe the MA model is a good one and that the ACA should stand no matter who wins. The guys in places of power can duke it out, but the people need real solutions - yesterday.

I have good friends who live in MA and love it. It was implemented in 2 years and they saw their out of pocket expenses and premiums drop right away. 100% of children in MA and 98% of everyone in MA have health insurance coverage. It works, the sky hasn’t fallen and capitalism is still working quite well there.

 

[jpjd]

It’s not free - the taxpayer foots the bill via the state. In addition, some services (not necessarily eye exams/glasses) do have a copay and in a handful of states, recipients pay premiums.

Yes, that’s exactly my point. The TAXPAYER foots the bill. It is not “free” healthcare. Spot on.

I assume some entity will be funding the clinic and that they find this approach less costly than paying for emergency care or preventable complications, no?

Federal grants, from what I understand. The clinic will hopefully be less costly to the system than using the ER as a physicians office, which so many of the poor do. But again, my concerns remain, that I mentioned in post #15.

 

[seekerz]

Federal grants, from what I understand. Hopefully less costly to the system than ER. But again, my concerns remain, that I mentioned in post

Nothing is free. I agree with you. My support for the ACA does not arise from some perception that it seeks to provide ‘free’ care. Other than certain defined preventative services (which it makes financial sense for insurers to facilitate), the act does not presume to provide ‘free’ care to recipients.

I do understand your concerns as expressed in post #15. You think that those whose premiums will be fully subsidized might misuse the privilege. That is certainly possible, but the most expensive part of health care is not the unnecessary doctor visit or two. To get costly care, you generally have to have something actually wrong with you - so unless those people are going to be pretending to be ill, doctors are going to remain the gatekeepers - determining who needs and gets what.

 

[seekerz]

I have good friends who live in MA and love it. It was implemented in 2 years and they saw their out of pocket expenses and premiums drop right away. 100% of children in MA and 98% of everyone in MA have health insurance coverage. It works, the sky hasn’t fallen and capitalism is still working quite well there.

That part about the out of pocket expenses falling sounds really, really good because aside from the uninsured, I know of people with employer-funded insurance who find their benefits too expensive to use!

Deductibles of thousands on a minimum wage job, essentially means for a healthy person that they might as well be uninsured. So Pap smears get put off, blood pressure does not get checked…until they are sick enough, and their care costly enough, that it eventually makes sense to use their insurance coverage.

 

[Nimzovik]

You pay $50 for that aspirin because the hospital has to recoup the care it gives to those folks who can afford to buy health insurance but have chosen not to.

Governor Romney was right In Massachusetts-people who can afford health insurance should be forced to pay so that those costs aren’t passed on to those of us who have chosen to be responsible and pay for our health insurance.

Italics mine

Precisely my point. This is one of the issues that need addressing. Price gouging me for services I did not recieve. Why do responsible people get punished for being responsible?

Hmmmm… And just **who *is it that is not paying for thei*r helath care and forcing me to do so?

Also! Why do hospitals get to name their price? What shennanigans are going on there? How much is actually corruption in the name of forced charity?

Now with Govt run health care my charity dollars are being given in the name of the Govt, instead of the name of Our Lord via Catholic Hopspitals which will be forced to close due to the HHS mandate and the lack of funds as the Govt. takes away my charitable contibutions of support money to Catholic Hospitals to garner votes for the Democrats!

 

[seekerz]

Italics mine

Precisely my point. This is one of the issues that need addressing. Price gouging me for services I did not recieve. Why do responsible people get punished for being responsible?

Hmmmm… And just **who *is it that is not paying for thei*r helath care and forcing me to do so?

Also! Why do hospitals get to name their price? What shennanigans are going on there? How much is actually corruption in the name of forced charity?

Now with Govt run health care my charity dollars are being given in the name of the Govt, instead of the name of Our Lord via Catholic Hopspitals which will be forced to close due to the HHS mandate and the lack of funds as the Govt. takes away my charitable contibutions of support money to Catholic Hospitals to garner votes for the Democrats!

I’m not sure I follow you. The hospitals are run as businesses; they not only have to function to preserve life and limb - they have to at least break even, if not make a profit. They also must provide emergency care (though some have practices that discourage the uninsured) and then try to collect from the patients. In addition of course, except for planned care nobody can predict the exact cost which will be incurred when someone enters the hospital, so pre-payment is not practical.

If collection fails, the losses must be recouped somewhere, so prices are set such that the (name removed by moderator)ut from paying patients will cover expenses incurred by non-paying ones. But it’s a vicious cycle because inflated bills tend to ensure that sometimes even well-meaning people of ordinary means cannot hope to pay what is owed in any kind of reasonable time frame. THAT is what is going on and THAT is why government intervention is needed to ensure that people have a means to pay and that non-payment (and other factors of course) does not continue to feed spiraling costs.

 

[Nimzovik]

I believe that the HHS mandate will be dealt with definitively once the election rhetoric has faded. It is not essential to the ACA, nor does it, by itself, make the bill a bad one.

My personal preference is for health insurance via employment to be phased out. Let’s face it, some people are going to use the money they are paid to do morally objectionable things - regardless of their employers’ religious beliefs. We can’t help that - the most we can do is be as far removed from those transactions as possible. Obama will have to yield on this one, but it’s not politically expedient for him to do so right now (and political expediency is everything to politicians it seems).

For me personally, the whole issue is a technicality of sorts because millions of Catholics have private insurance which also provides those same ‘objectionable’ services to members; separate plans or no, it’s the same entity the money is going to - for moral and immoral purposes. What makes tax dollars different? Because they are not voluntary and insurance premiums are? Tell that to the people who will file for bankruptcy this year over health debts…

Bold Lettering Mine:

You have got to be kidding. I suppose you believe Obama Care is not a *tax *too!

Ok boys and girls! Raise your hands if you think there is a Liberal agenda to machinate against the Holy Mother Church!

Just **wait **till the no doubt soon to be appointed Health Care Czar starts allocating Health Care Dollars to those which ever states that oppose the President’s Administration! You know! Not unlike the current administration is doing via the Forrest Service in regard to the Tombstone **Arizona Water situation! **

See here

youtube.com/watch?v=hLHuXJ7lMPM

Gee! Do ya think? Do you think that could even be a remote possibility?
No Duh! Gee! Would Eric Holder enforce -did I just say enforce? Yes! I did, I did!anything like* that?*

Or…! Like the Federal Stance regarding immigration? They sure left Arizona twisting in the wind. See here!

video.foxnews.com/v/1708334291001/feds-turn-their-back-on-arizona

Wake up gentlemen.:coffeeread:

It’s time we learn how Politics work!

 

[Zosimus41]

Or that they can turn the government into a theocracy, imposing their moral values on healthcare, diet, use of resources, material taught to children, etc. etc. etc.

Interesting that we feel that the government should be in charge of charity as opposed to us as individuals. That the government should become the church. We use the power of government to force others to pay ‘their fair share’ however we define it, however we take into account the effort and risks they took in acquiring their wealth. And perhaps the lack of effort or risk those demanding more were willing to take. Account for how individuals choices are behind the state they find themselves in. A government can never be completely fair, their are too many variables in peoples lives. But we insist that the government is somehow the appropriate mechanism to take goods from some to give to others in accordance with some moral code.

People stop thinking of themselves as beggars, grateful for the sacrifices of others in providing assistance to us in our hour of need. Instead angry and resentful that all of our wants, needs, desires, aren’t met by the ‘government’ since we are entitled to them.

And many who insist the government perform this evaluation and function, take from some to give to others, provide little to charity themselves as they insist it’s the governments job, not theirs.

Well said

As Jesus said the poor will always be among us.

 

[Nimzovik]

Yes. Well said.

 

[Nimzovik]

I’m not sure I follow you. The hospitals are run as businesses; they not only have to function to preserve life and limb - they have to at least break even, if not make a profit. They also must provide emergency care (though some have practices that discourage the uninsured) and then try to collect from the patients. In addition of course, except for planned care nobody can predict the exact cost which will be incurred when someone enters the hospital, so pre-payment is not practical.

If collection fails, the losses must be recouped somewhere, so prices are set such that the (name removed by moderator)ut from paying patients will cover expenses incurred by non-paying ones. But it’s a vicious cycle because inflated bills tend to ensure that sometimes even well-meaning people of ordinary means cannot hope to pay what is owed in any kind of reasonable time frame. THAT is what is going on and THAT is why government intervention is needed to ensure that people have a means to pay and that non-payment (and other factors of course) does not continue to feed spiraling costs.

Bold Lettering Mine:

So. Should** I** Pay $50,000 for a VW because people steal cars?

It violates my American sense of conscience to be charged for other peoples bills. Period. Especailly when it is against my will. I think the word for this is …uh …robbery(?)…fraud? If Govt. were to monitor corruption of this sort and others, as opposed to taking over the whole industry, it would seem more reasonable.

Also. I still wanna know… Who monitors the Hospitals that charge what they say is the correct amount to off set the difference? Where is the checks and balances there?
*Come on! *There simply has got to be a better solution than Obama Care amongst bright people.

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmm… I wonder if this might be linked to the ‘Liberal agenda’ I referenced in Post # 27?

See here: foxnews.com/us/2012/07/01/texas-highway-billboard-tells-faithful-to-quit-church/

Ya Think?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Bold Lettering Mine:

So. Should** I** Pay $50,000 for a VW because people steal cars?

It violates my American sense of conscience to be charged for other peoples bills. Period. Especailly when it is against my will. I think the word for this is …uh …robbery(?)…fraud? If Govt. were to monitor corruption of this sort and others, as opposed to taking over the whole industry, it would seem more reasonable.

Also. I still wanna know… Who monitors the Hospitals that charge what they say is the correct amount to off set the difference? Where is the checks and balances there?
*Come on! *There simply has got to be a better solution than Obama Care amongst bright people.

Well Medicare reimburses only what they want.
Other costs are market checked. Most hospitals have their prices online and consumers can decide where they want to go for care.

Hospitals are required to care for people in the ER whether they can pay or not. If they can’t, have no insurance, who does pay? The hospital has to write it off. Catholic hospitals in particular do a great deal of writting off. How do they stay in business?

 

[Nimzovik]

Aye! *There *is the rub.

One can say we already have Govt.Health Care. Except currently, responsible people can still choose their doctor. That is …until Obama Care sets in. Then *responsible *citizens will pay more for less.

I reiterate! Reform the current practices. Do not allow Obama Care to *solidify! *

 

[ricks1948]

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

This is actually has more than one author and taken from more than one quote.
However I believe it to be true. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury

Offering illegal immigrants sanctuary/citizenship (they cost the US billions of dollars a year)Free health care. Are financuals are finite we owe $1.16 trillion to China that we cant pay.And we want to vote for things that will cost this country God knows how much.

I know many will not like this anology…

On trick or treat night when the kids come to your door what happens when you just offer the bowl of candies? Those monsters will grab handfulls before you know it your either completely out or refilling your bowl.

Our nation hands us the perverbial bowl of handouts and people grab by the handfull. I guess until our resources run out then we will be in the same boat as Greece… bankrupt

The Catholic Church has lasted over 2000 years

 

[Rdunbar123]

You pay $50 for that aspirin because the hospital has to recoup the care it gives to those folks who can afford to buy health insurance but have chosen not to.

Governor Romney was right In Massachusetts-people who can afford health insurance should be forced to pay so that those costs aren’t passed on to those of us who have chosen to be responsible and pay for our health insurance.

T\

This would be great if there wasn’t a long list of people that will never pay and will not pay the tax, fee, fine whatever you want to call it. unless you deny service or throw people in jail the Mandate is based on false assumptions. of course people that have decent jobs and homes can be forced to buy insurance, but others won’t. I speak from sad experience. I have four children all grown. my thirty year old son is an addict. he has been to the emergency room multiple times, they provide a service, bill him and he doesnt pay because he cant hold a job. He is in rehab(prayers please) so someday he may pay, but my point is if you think he is an isolated case think of all the illegals and other poor that can’t pay. so I doubt the fine(tax whatever) wont make much of a difference.

 

[Nimzovik]

Yessssssssss… About illegal immigration…

I would like to see those that find themselves in such a situation, get services from Catholic Charities (Hopspitals) as in the Faith Based Initiatives a la the former President Bush. Then the Glory will be given to God for charity as opposed to the glory being given to Obama and the State! However, Obama care will force such Catholic charities to close, will it not? If not now, then eventually.

We see the Liberal Agenda in the Obama Care plan - do we not? No wonder there is no conscience clause. The Church was manipulated (lied to) into believeing there would be such a clause. Even if a satisfactory conscience clause is given to the Bishops, once Obama ccare is solidified, just how long does one think that clause will last? Ahmmmmmmm? No doubt much will be made of the conscience clause once ( if ) it is granted. The Church will perhaps then, foolishly IMHO, alpplaud a victory. However, let’s face it. The Democratic Party has declared war on Holy Mother Church. How much **more *proof do we need? The conscience clause will *be removed -(if ever granted in the first place) sonner or later.

We can not placate the adversary. We must oraganize against such.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yessssssssss… About illegal immigration…

I would like to see those that find themselves in such a situation, get services from Catholic Charities (Hopspitals) as in the Faith Based Initiatives a la the former President Bush. Then the Glory will be given to God for charity as opposed to the glory being given to Obama and the State! However, Obama care will force such Catholic charities to close, will it not?

Why is that the only option?

 

[seekerz]

Bold Lettering Mine:

You have got to be kidding. I suppose you believe Obama Care is not a *tax *too!

Ok boys and girls! Raise your hands if you think there is a Liberal agenda to machinate against the Holy Mother Church!

Just **wait **till the no doubt soon to be appointed Health Care Czar starts allocating Health Care Dollars to those which ever states that oppose the President’s Administration! You know! Not unlike the current administration is doing via the Forrest Service in regard to the Tombstone **Arizona Water situation! **

See here

youtube.com/watch?v=hLHuXJ7lMPM

Gee! Do ya think? Do you think that could even be a remote possibility?
No Duh! Gee! Would Eric Holder enforce -did I just say enforce? Yes! I did, I did!anything like* that?*

Or…! Like the Federal Stance regarding immigration? They sure left Arizona twisting in the wind. See here!

video.foxnews.com/v/1708334291001/feds-turn-their-back-on-arizona

Wake up gentlemen.:coffeeread:

It’s time we learn how Politics work!

No, actually I was not kidding. Politics or no politics, Obamacare is a start towards safeguarding access to health care: for the insured as well as for the uninsured.

Mother Church preceded Obama by a couple millenia - the only real threat to her that I see is from lukewarm parenting.

 

[seekerz]

Bold Lettering Mine:

So. Should** I** Pay $50,000 for a VW because people steal cars?

It violates my American sense of conscience to be charged for other peoples bills. Period. Especailly when it is against my will. I think the word for this is …uh …robbery(?)…fraud? If Govt. were to monitor corruption of this sort and others, as opposed to taking over the whole industry, it would seem more reasonable.

Also. I still wanna know… Who monitors the Hospitals that charge what they say is the correct amount to off set the difference? Where is the checks and balances there?
*Come on! *There simply has got to be a better solution than Obama Care amongst bright people.

'Fraid that’s the best solution I have seen “bright people” offer - at least to date.

The fact is, whether it offends you or not, you are and have been paying for the care of those who can’t afford it. The crux of this whole big argument is really over whether or not you should know the details of how you do that.

In our system as it presently exists, the idea of choice (in paying or not paying into the system) is simply a fantasy.

 

[Nimzovik]

Why is that the only option?

Please clarify?