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Nimzovik
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If that is your stance, then we will simply have to agree to disagree agreeably.
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styrgwillidar
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pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/02/will-more-doctors-go-galt-because-of-obamacare/
Yeah, it’s a conservative site but they have a point. The cost of the system will go up due to greater use. This means resources will have to be allocated, and unlike a capitalist system where there is a customer/business relationship negotiating services and individuals deciding on priorty of services they want -we’re going to have a government oversight system telling us what services are/must be available to us, how much of those systems we’ll be able to use, and when.
Hiding/shielding individuals from costs simply leads to unrealistic expectations and over-utilization, under-payment of providers, and eventually degradation to services as over-worked and unprofitable enterprises fold/quit/go bankrupt. Which leads to a death spiral as the load on the remaining organizations increases.
Someone mentioned ERs having to take patients. You know what the solution was from facilities facing bankruptcy under that paradigm in SoCal? Close the ERs so the rest of the enterprise/facility could continue to exist.
ETA: My mom spent 48 hrs on a bed in an ER hallway waiting for a room in the hospital to open up. Due to being one of the few remaining ERs in SoCal they take in a huge number of ER cases and therefore any incomers to the ER need hospitalization increase the load on that facility, sometimes taking priority over surgeries that have been booked, delivery services etc.
Yeah, it’s a conservative site but they have a point. The cost of the system will go up due to greater use. This means resources will have to be allocated, and unlike a capitalist system where there is a customer/business relationship negotiating services and individuals deciding on priorty of services they want -we’re going to have a government oversight system telling us what services are/must be available to us, how much of those systems we’ll be able to use, and when.
Hiding/shielding individuals from costs simply leads to unrealistic expectations and over-utilization, under-payment of providers, and eventually degradation to services as over-worked and unprofitable enterprises fold/quit/go bankrupt. Which leads to a death spiral as the load on the remaining organizations increases.
Someone mentioned ERs having to take patients. You know what the solution was from facilities facing bankruptcy under that paradigm in SoCal? Close the ERs so the rest of the enterprise/facility could continue to exist.
ETA: My mom spent 48 hrs on a bed in an ER hallway waiting for a room in the hospital to open up. Due to being one of the few remaining ERs in SoCal they take in a huge number of ER cases and therefore any incomers to the ER need hospitalization increase the load on that facility, sometimes taking priority over surgeries that have been booked, delivery services etc.
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Nimzovik
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Or whether or not I want such power invested in such a govt that presently, IMHO, rules against the populace. A govt’ as I have pointed out earlier, is capable of choosing which policies/laws it wants to enforce
Or whether or not I want the a beauracracy an elephantine involved in my helath care choices that may indeed require expediency.
As fr this: “The fact is, whether it offends you or not, you are and have been paying for the care of those who can’t afford it.” I assert it does not fall into this category only.
There are bettter solutions for bright people than just giving up and accepting such.
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seekerz
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The difference the tax will make is that, if he qualifies you will see an immediate drop in the size of his final bill because insurance companies pay far less for the same service than uninsured people do.
Suppose he goes to the ER and is charged $ 1000 - that is, by law, the same charge as for everyone else who gets his specific services, BUT insured people get discounts which are way larger than anything your son could negotiate my himself. That is, if he even knows he can negotiate a discount; many people don’t know that.
Point is, right now your son’s final bill will be $1000, or at best $700-$800 if he can get a discount, whereas the final bill for an insured person will be anywhere from about $200 to $400 or potentially even less for Medicare/Medicaid members. So, if he gets insurance coverage, presto - his bill shrinks. The hospital wins, because they actually get paid something, as opposed to having to write off the bill. The public also wins because they no longer have to be overcharged to cover his unpaid bills.
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Michael_Mayo
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Well, you said, “However, Obama care will force such Catholic charities to close, will it not?”
Why will they be forced to close?
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seekerz
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Yeah, one of those solutions has been nicknamed Obamacare.
And as for the bureaucracy? That’s how the system was built. Do you know there’s a separate code for every possible thing you could go see a doctor for? Yeah, and there are a myriad of different codes for the treatment you might receive, based on the who and where of your treatment. Then there are people who sit at desks all day and match each of those codes with a different charge. Then there are people who review that work and decide if the insurance company is going to pay the charge. Then there are people who review that decision if it is challenged. Then there are people who review…You get the picture.
Health care is already a large bureaucracy: both the private aspect and the government aspect. Changing that is not impossible, but if we spend years fighting over each plan, then we can be sure nothing will ever change…
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Nimzovik
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Great Post. Yah. There has to be a way to provide Health Care for those in dire need and can not afford helath Care, that does not violate the 5 Non - negotiables that the Obama Care flagrantly violates.
Indeed. So methinks there should be a way to grow Catholic Hospitals that could operate much more cheaply. I do not know what that model would look like. However, as a person of Faith, I would like to see this.
Praying My Rosary regards, Nimzovik
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Rdunbar123
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You completely miss my point he has no interest in paying at the present. the illegals like it or not also use the emergency room for anything and will not pay. since they have no money you cant force them. I am not blaming them for using the service, if i needed something for my family I would do the same. name a country where government run health care has been a rousing success.
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seekerz
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It depends on how you define success. If you consider how much it enriches the providers of care, then America is number one. If you consider the indicators of health care such as life expectancy at birth, then the level of success is pretty much the same for all developed countries.
As for missing the point, I think that you are the one who has. Illegal aliens are not the ones targeted by the ACA. I’m not telling you that there is no possible way they might benefit, but the law is targeted to provide coverage for American citizens who are now uninsured AND to slow the ballooning costs of health care for everyone.
P.S. I think I understand what you mean about him not being interested in paying. Even if that is so, let’s suppose he qualifies for fully subsidized premiums and never personally pays a dime, getting coverage STILL brings down his bill and controls how much the rest of us have to pay for his care. Unless we are going to start refusing care to those who can’t/won’t pay, that solution is pretty much the best alternative to the present situation.
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Zosimus41
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And in smaller clinics that done by just a couple of people.
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Zosimus41
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I remember when I was visiting a friend of mine in minor emergancy clinic this couple from out of country showed up because the wife wearing high heel shoes complained her feet hurt.
My jaw dropped. I remember thinking I hope they pay their visit in cash…
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seekerz
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It doesn’t matter the size of the clinic. If they accept insurance, they are linked, via those companies and Medicare/Medicare, to one of the greatest bureaucracies on earth.
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Rdunbar123
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I did not say that illegals would benefit. Their situation will not change, neither will the poor who use the emergency room as primary care. I just don’t believe that the fee will force anyone to get insurance. The result of the ACA will be rationing of care. Since neither one of us can prove our point lets talk two years from now and see who’s right. Btw I have no problem with rationing , I’m sixty two and shouldn’t get a transplant that could save someone younger with a young family,
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Zosimus41
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I was just commenting on the number of people.Part of your post was
“Then there are people who sit at desks all day and match each of those codes with a different charge. Then there are** people who review that work and decide if the insurance company is going to pay the charge. Then there are people **who review that decision if it is challenged. Then there are people who review…You get the picture”.
I just meant smaller clinics have less people to do the front office billing… thats all Just my little two cents worth.
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Nimzovik
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Ok let us address this point. Do you support Obama Care? I need you to declare your position on this. I will then proceed from there. A simple question really.
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Michael_Mayo
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The American Medical Association and the American Hospital Association support ACA though it is far from perfect. I also think it is a step inthe right direction, though you are not asking me - my two cents.
A significant asopect will be ACO’s:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountable_care_organization
In opposition to the mandate whom are we trying to protect? People who do not want to purchase health insurance but will certainly use health services at some point and not be able to pay for it.
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Nimzovik
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Indeed… How does one reconcile advocating Obama Care and the 5 Non - negotiables?
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Michael_Mayo
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5?Indeed… How does one reconcile advocating Obama Care and the 5 Non - negotiables?
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seekerz
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Reality check: health care is already rationed all over the globe, including the US. A new treatment comes out and the first thing that is weighed before it becomes available to the public is, is it cost-effective, meaning does it deliver enough proven benefit to justify the expense?
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seekerz
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The same way millions of Catholics justify paying private insurance: by not sacrificing the health care access of themselves and their families in the (likely vain) hope that this will stop their insurance company from offering abortion coverage.Indeed… How does one reconcile advocating Obama Care and the 5 Non - negotiables?
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