Free speech vs. harrassment

[cellodude]

Dear collective wisdom,

This is my first post on CA forums, and I’m really excited to hear what you all think!

Due to personal circumstances, I happen to be fairly familiar with Baptist theology, and so my evangelization efforts focus primarily on Baptists, and pastors in particular.

As many of you know, many Baptist churches are filled with a significant number of former Catholics. I listen to at least 3-5 Baptist sermons from local churches every week, and so I also know that there is a fair amount of anti-Catholic rhetoric that goes on (we are grouped with unbelievers, Satanists, Muslims, etc. and accused of recrucifying Christ, etc.).

I deeply feel that members of my Catholic family have been pulled out of my parish by these denominational groups, and so I occasionally do what any person might do who has lost a family member: I stand on the street outside the church, about once a year, with signs saying: “Catholics come home” or “Catholic response to Baptists.” I then include some search terms that link to my blog, where I provide a Catholic response to some of the sermons I hear (readywithareason.blogspot.com).

HERE’S MY QUESTION:

Do any of you have any experience or advice on how I might (1) straddle the line between reaching out in love (and using fairly innocuous, unoffensive signs) to reach fallen-away Catholics by standing on public property outside Baptist churches while (2) not crossing the line into the uncharitable realm of harassment?

For instance, at one fundamentalist church, where the anti-Catholicism is particularly virulent, I actually had about six months of successful conversations with the pastor (who even admitted in a sermon that he started to believe me…which was when he decided he couldn’t talk to me anymore!). The pastor told me in his final email that he no longer wanted to talk to me, and if I tried to contact any members of his congregation, he would report me for harassment. (At that point, I had never done anything to contact members of his congregation.)

Last week, I decided to put up a simple sign (printed on three 8x11 pieces of paper) that read: “Catholic Response to Baptists. Google: Lighthouse Baptist response.” I put a crucifix and monstrance underneath, praying that these images would help draw Catholics back to the fullness of the Christ’s Church.

Needless to say, the pastor emailed me that afternoon saying he was considering reporting me to the police and/or the bishop.

So, once again, I ask: am I being bullied by a pastor who has no legal right to claim harassment (especially when he has publicly accused Catholicism of unspeakable things)? Or, am I crossing a line and should back down?

And finally, what do you all think are some effective (alternative?) ways to reach members of non-Catholic congregations in a way that is loving (and not offensive), yet also will stick in their minds and get them to actually engage in dialogue?

Many thanks in advance!

May the peace of Christ be with you all.

Danny

 

[InternetWoman]

Dear collective wisdom,
Last week, I decided to put up a simple sign (printed on three 8x11 pieces of paper) that read: “Catholic Response to Baptists. Google: Lighthouse Baptist response.” I put a crucifix and monstrance underneath, praying that these images would help draw Catholics back to the fullness of the Christ’s Church.

Where did you put the sign? If it was on your own property great, if it was on THEIR property not good! Think of it from their point of view. How would you feel if someone came onto Catholic Church property and put up a sign for the Baptist faith?

I applaud you for your willingness to witness but I think you might need to throttle things back a bit.

 

[cellodude]

Thanks for your response.

The sign was placed on public property at an intersection where some church members pass when leaving.

Also, I have asked myself that question over and over: how would I feel if the situation was reversed.

I have really mixed feelings about that question. Certainly, I tried to post a sign that was fairly neutral. The sign didn’t indicate what the response was. By indicating that their was a response, the sign was basically an invitation to enter into dialogue.

Further, I go out of my way on my blog to point out what I admire about my Baptist brothers and sisters, the fact that I consider them Christians, and that my goal is to increase understanding and unity. At the same time, I try to point out that there exist alternative interpretations of Scripture that are rooted in the ancient beliefs of our Catholic faith, themselves rooted in the teaching of the apostles.

Ultimately, I’m trying to reach out to Baptists just like they try to find ways to reach out to us. They boldly celebrate 95 theses being nailed to the door of a Catholic Church; it is my hope that I can return the favor, but to do so in a gentle, loving, and non-threatening way…but also a way that shows real love for those people–those family members of ours–who have been drawn out of the Catholic Church by false promises and doctrines.

 

[InternetWoman]

Thanks for your response.

The sign was placed on public property at an intersection where some church members pass when leaving.

Also, I have asked myself that question over and over: how would I feel if the situation was reversed.

I have really mixed feelings about that question. Certainly, I tried to post a sign that was fairly neutral. The sign didn’t indicate what the response was. By indicating that their was a response, the sign was basically an invitation to enter into dialogue.

Further, I go out of my way on my blog to point out what I admire about my Baptist brothers and sisters, the fact that I consider them Christians, and that my goal is to increase understanding and unity. At the same time, I try to point out that there exist alternative interpretations of Scripture that are rooted in the ancient beliefs of our Catholic faith, themselves rooted in the teaching of the apostles.

Ultimately, I’m trying to reach out to Baptists just like they try to find ways to reach out to us. They boldly celebrate 95 theses being nailed to the door of a Catholic Church; it is my hope that I can return the favor, but to do so in a gentle, loving, and non-threatening way…but also a way that shows real love for those people–those family members of ours–who have been drawn out of the Catholic Church by false promises and doctrines.

Sounds like you are doing the right things for the right reasons. The pastor has no right to complain about harassment or to the Bishop if your signs were on public property. Have you tried the approach where the focus of your message is simply “let’s talk” or “come dialogue” (rather than a specific Church teaching). Perhaps something along the lines of “Let’s share our joy of Christ.” Of course, it may be that the pastor has become overly sensitive on this issue and can’t tolerate ANY discussion or awareness of the issues. In that case you may have to back off until time has eased some of his concern (and pain and doubt). Good luck on your mission. It is a worthwhile one.

 

[RosarioD]

Danny,

First, great work and thank you for being such a courageous witness.

It sure sounds like you are a threat to their baptist church. I read your blogspot, though not all, and you have convincing reasons even to the point of the pastor starting to agree with you! The fullness of the faith is with the Holy Catholic church. When you point out something (though in charity) that someone is missing especially when it comes to faith, it makes them defensive. Your emails to him were also very charitable to the point of having him over for a meal
The pastor cannot have you arrested because you are in public property.
Unity for the church is a huge and daunting task that the Pope (and we should) prays for. Ultimately, it is up to the individual baptist to be open and be willing to hear the truths of the Catholic faith. If they are not, then there’s not much else to do. The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. Take courage and God bless people like you.

 

[cellodude]

Thanks for your encouraging words.

I’ll let you know how the situation pans out. In the meantime, let’s join our prayers in asking for greater unity in Christ’s bride!

 

[Jon_Leveille]

I do not know what this particular church believes, but I do know that this quote from your website sounds as if you are saying that baptizing, or dedicating an infant gets that child to heaven. If that same infant, was not dedicated before it died, it would go to hell!! God gave us free will for a reason, why give us free will, if someone else has to decide whether they dedicate us as a child, what if they didn’t dedicate us as an infant, and we died. Would it be their fault, THEY were the ones that didn’t dedicate you, why should you be punished for something they didn’t do??? Why would God send someone who does not have the ability to accept him as Lord and Saviour, to hell???

“If Pastor Carlo believes that this baby truly IS part of the mystical body of Christ, then I would simply ask how that has occurred, especially since this pronouncement is occurring before the ritual. (Did the baby join the mystical body of Christ at conception? During the first prayer the parents likely prayed over her? When did it occur, if not during the dedication?”-Response to Fairwinds Baptist Church August 2, 2009 11:00 A.M. Service

Here are a few verses off the top of my head, that might apply to this:
Deuteronomy 1:39
Matthew 19:14
Mark 10:14

Also you have done nothing other than trying to refute his sermons, that could be called harassment, so you are definitely in the clear.

 

[Jon_Leveille]

The quote is off of your Blog, just in case anyone is getting confused!!!

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I would strongly suspect that you have gone WAY overboard, on their property, in your efforts.

Keep in mind that old adage, “You attract more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar”.

You will rarely get anyplace by arguing with Protestants about their beliefs. You may score a point or two, but you will also annoy people and alienate them in the process.

The Pastor of that church does indeed have the perfect right to bar you from that churches property, and to ask you to stop attempting to communicate with him. If you persist after you have received that request, you can indeed be cited for harassment, for trespassing, etc. You could easily be convicted of harassment if you send this person an e-mail, telephone him, or approach him on either church or his property.

As to your posting of the poster and the crucifix, well I can’t think of much that would offend Baptists more than that. If you WANTED to offend them, you did a VERY good job of it by doing that.

They find a crucifix to be VERY OFFENSIVE! They see any image of Jesus as being idol worship, and I suspect that you know that full well. And, you will not really draw many lapsed Catholics in that congregation, by behaving so rudely.

What you did was truly offensive to those people.

The approach that you are taking will most likely serve to drive more people AWAY from looking at the Catholic Church objectively, that it will ever attract anyone. You are not approaching them with love, you are attempting to hammer them with your beliefs, and shove down their throats how wrong you perceive them to be.

Yes, you are free to do what you please on public property. Just be aware that the approach that you have chosen will not draw those people to the Catholic Church. Instead, what you are doing is so offensive that it will convince many more people that the Catholic Church truly is wrong.

It will also convince them that you are nothing more than a fanatical nut job. If that is your goal, keep on doing what you are doing. If you want to draw people toward our church, I would strongly suggest that you go get some training in how to do it effectively.

 

[cellodude]

Thanks for your responses.

To be clear: I was not on the Baptist church’s property. Also, my sign was posted on public property (with permission from the police) away from the church at an intersection where (some) church members would pass after they left their church.

The sign was printed on three 8x11 pieces of paper, and was rather simple. In no way was it constructed to be in-your-face or rude.

The sign had two components: two lines of text (“Catholic response to Baptists” and “Google: Lighthouse Baptist response”) and the two images, printed side-by-side on the bottom piece of paper.

The basic message of the text is that a response exists. One of the most frustrating things about the sermons I hear is that they accuse Catholics of things like recrucifying Christ and count us among unbelievers, Satanists, Buddhists, etc…yet, they never once suggest that Catholics have anything to say in response.

The idea behind the images is that I’m trying to reach those fallen-away Catholics who, in their heart of hears, still longs for Jesus’s unique presence in the Holy Eucharist, and for the authentic symbol of the crucifix, missing as it is from their current church building. (I say authentic, since the cross by itself is simply a reminder of a torturous device used to take the lives of many people, including Jesus. While I have crosses myself and greatly respect the image of the cross, it is precisely because of our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross, which one must at least call to mind to make the cross meaningful. The crucifix merely acknowledges that reality of “Christ and Him crucified” in the object itself. Of course, it has been pointed out many times that the cross sans corpus is not a symbol of the resurrection. One would better wear an empty-tomb around one’s neck if they wanted to carry around a symbol of that.)

I know that people will have different (and strong) feelings about the issue of how best to (and not to!) evangelize, and I encourage other folks to weigh in. On the one hand, I am really trying to reach out in love, and I understand that no matter how loving one tries to reach out, the mere act of reaching, no matter how it is done, will be taken as a rude threat by some.

By the way, I typically post a sign about once a year. I’m not going at this like a raving lunatic, waving a sign every week as I shout at passerby’s! I completely grant the point about not wanting to look like one, though, and I grant the possibility that there is no way around this possibility in posting a sign.

What do others think?

 

[cellodude]

I do not know what this particular church believes, but I do know that this quote from your website sounds as if you are saying that baptizing, or dedicating an infant gets that child to heaven. If that same infant, was not dedicated before it died, it would go to hell!! God gave us free will for a reason, why give us free will, if someone else has to decide whether they dedicate us as a child, what if they didn’t dedicate us as an infant, and we died. Would it be their fault, THEY were the ones that didn’t dedicate you, why should you be punished for something they didn’t do??? Why would God send someone who does not have the ability to accept him as Lord and Saviour, to hell???

Thanks for your comment, Jon!

Please allow me to make a few clarifications:

1. Catholics, as you probably know, do believe that infants that are validly baptized will go to heaven if they die before the age of reason [AOR].
2. I was not saying in my blog that I or Baptist believe that “baby dedication” accomplishes this same thing.
3. What I was pointing out is that (a) if the Baptist pastor believes that babies would go to heaven if they die before reaching the AOR, then (b) I would ask how they know these babies go to heaven, given the doctrine of original sin.

I see the problems as follows:

1. One consequence of Original Sin is that humans are born ontologically incapable of entering heaven. This is precisely the reason that we have to be “regenerated” or “born again.” Christ, by his power and grace, literally recreates us spiritually when we are saved so that we are capable of entering heaven. Now, this Baptist pastor can either deny what I just wrote. Or, if he accepts it, he has to explain how a baby that is born into the state of original sin can somehow go to heaven.
2. The only way that the Baptist pastor can solve that problem is to admit that Jesus somehow/sometime regenerates that baby’s soul between the point of death and the point of entering heaven. Now, I’m happy to admit that this is a possibility, given God’s infinite mercy. But my point is this: the Bible no where admits such a possibility explicitly. The verses you cited don’t actually address how children actually come to Christ spiritually! After all, IF baptism is the way Christ established for children to come to him (especially unregenerated babies incapable of asking for regeneration for themselves), then it is those who reject infant baptism that are actually preventing the children from coming to Jesus!
3. But that is beside the point. The point is: if Baptists believe that Christ can regenerate a baby who dies without them making an act of faith, why would Jesus not also regenerate that baby while the baby is alive, if the parents approach the Lord in faith and ask this grace of Him?
4. Further, if you read the pastor’s words closely, it would seem as if he is already treating the baby as a member of the church family (though I point out that he might be using the term “family” sociologically and not theologically). But in any case, from a psychological perspective, most Baptist parents probably do feel that their child is somehow spiritually “perfect.” But the only way that this could be true in the theological sense is if Christ had somehow, at a previous point in time, regenerated the baby, which is the very thing that Catholics say occurs in infant baptism!

So, what I’m getting at in the post is that, when push comes to shove, Baptists actually believe that God acts very similarly in regard to babies as Catholics do. The only difference is that Catholics have a way of explaining HOW God allows the little children to come to Him, whereas as this Baptist pastor seems to assume (in an unspoken manner) that the child already HAS come to Him.

Here are a few verses off the top of my head, that might apply to this:
Deuteronomy 1:39
Matthew 19:14
Mark 10:14

Also you have done nothing other than trying to refute his sermons, that could be called harassment, so you are definitely in the clear.

I’m not sure I understand your last sentence. Is there a word missing?

Many thanks for your response, and may the peace of Christ be with you!

 

[Jon_Leveille]

As to your posting of the poster and the crucifix, well I can’t think of much that would offend Baptists more than that. If you WANTED to offend them, you did a VERY good job of it by doing that.

They find a crucifix to be VERY OFFENSIVE! They see any image of Jesus as being idol worship, and I suspect that you know that full well. And, you will not really draw many lapsed Catholics in that congregation, by behaving so rudely.

What you did was truly offensive to those people.

I only had one problem with everything you said, and this is it:
Baptists do not hate pictures of the cross, and images of Christ.
I have been a member of several Baptist churches, and Baptists, don’t exactly hate the sight of a crucifix, or view images of Jesus as Idols!!! I know several Baptist churches that have images of Jesus in the church, and I don’t know how that rumor got around, but it is definitely not true, there are some people in Baptist churches, that might view statues of the saints as idols, although I don’t know anyone that does. I think that there are a lot of rumors about pretty much all denominations, that should be researched, and either confirmed, or refuted, before they get too widespread.
May You Have a Blessed day