Free will and determinism

[Richca]

So please tell me that how soul and body interact?

The immaterial soul animates, moves, and interacts with the body by contact of power similarly to how God who is wholly immaterial in the highest degree created the material world and interacts with it and the angels too who also are pure spirits, that is, by contact of power.

 

[reggieM]

STT - do you believe that God exists?

 

[STT]

You mean, how does the soul leave the body and end in either Heaven or Hell until the Last Judgement?

No. I think you need to start post #17.

I haven’t asked God about that yet - He knows.
You would be best to ask Him yourself – are you praying for answers to these questions?
God will reveal them to you if you persevere.

I would rather use and depend on my intellect.

 

[STT]

The immaterial soul animates, moves, and interacts with the body by contact of power similarly to how God who is wholly immaterial in the highest degree created the material world and interacts with it and the angels too who also are pure spirits, that is, by contact of power.

Ok. Soul is immaterial and don’t have any location. How it could interact with a local thing such as body? How souls recognize their own bodies in this creation?

 

[STT]

STT - do you believe that God exists?

I have a few proofs against God. Do you want to hear them? I can give you the threads or we can discuss them here.

 

[Richca]

Ok. Soul is immaterial and don’t have any location. How it could interact with a local thing such as body?

The soul is in the place where the body is for the soul is the form of the body and animates it and the body is definitely in some place on earth while we are alive on earth. So, here on earth, our soul is where ever we are with our living bodies. But, a spiritual substance such as the human soul or angels are not in a place in the same way as bodies are. Bodies are circumscribed and contained by the place and fill the place by its dimensions. Spirits have no quantitative dimensions to fill a place nor are they contained by the place. Rather, spiritual substances somehow contain the place by contact of power. So, the body does not contain the soul but rather the soul contains the body and is in the place where the body is by its union with the body. But, as the body is in place as being contained by the place and filling the place through its quantitative dimensions, the soul is in that place as containing the body and not as though either the body or the place contained the soul as a place contains a body.

How souls recognize their own bodies in this creation?

 

[reggieM]

I have a few proofs against God. Do you want to hear them? I can give you the threads or we can discuss them here.

Okay you do not believe God exists. Yes I would like to see the proofs here. Thanks

 

[reggieM]

No. I think you need to start post #17.

I would rather use and depend on my intellect.

Why do you think your human intellect can know things only God can know.?

 

[STT]

The soul is in the place where the body is for the soul is the form of the body and animates it and the body is definitely in some place on earth while we are alive on earth. So, here on earth, our soul is where ever we are with our living bodies. But, a spiritual substance such as the human soul or angels are not in a place in the same way as bodies are. Bodies are circumscribed and contained by the place and fill the place by its dimensions. Spirits have no quantitative dimensions to fill a place nor are they contained by the place. Rather, spiritual substances somehow contain the place by contact of power. So, the body does not contain the soul but rather the soul contains the body and is in the place where the body is by its union with the body. But, as the body is in place as being contained by the place and filling the place through its quantitative dimensions, the soul is in that place as containing the body and not as though either the body or the place contained the soul as a place contains a body.

If soul has no extension but a location then it must be a dot locating somewhere. Where is its place?

Well, somehow they do because it is through the soul’s powers which animate the body and the power of sight that I can see my body. A similar question could be is how do we recognize our own soul? Our soul is beyond sense observation so we can’t see it with our bodily eyes just as we can’t see God or the angels. With our soul united to the body here on earth, we naturally know and have a somewhat more direct knowledge only of sensible things as our knowledge here on earth about things comes by way of our sense perceptions. The soul’s existence can only be known by the intellect and reasoning or God telling us so through divine revelation. The soul’s essence or nature is not directly known or perceived by us as it is beyond sense observation and the power of our intellect in this life is tied to what are called sensible phantasms. If we are to ask ourselves what does the soul or an angel look like which are spiritual substances, we draw a blank. Such things are beyond our direct knowledge of them not to exclude in the least God himself.

I am afraid that saying somehow doesn’t resolve the problem. We need to make a causal relation between body and soul. Moreover in the creation that there are many bodies and souls, each souls should causally interact with its own body and only its own body. I don’t see how such a thing is possible. Why for example one soul doesn’t interact with all bodies?

 

[STT]

Okay you do not believe God exists. Yes I would like to see the proofs here. Thanks

Ok, lets start with one: The act of creation is like A(N)->U where A is the act of creation when there is nothing, N, and that leads to universe, U. Time is a part of U. Time in another hand is required to describe the act of creation (we have a two step state N and U which one comes after another) therefore such an act is impossible.

 

[STT]

Why do you think your human intellect can know things only God can know.?

God doesn’t create things with deficiency. Moreover we are talking about logic here. We are cognitively open to understand logic.

 

[reggieM]

We need to make a causal relation between body and soul.

What you’re saying is you want a physical relation between body and soul.
So, you want a material mechanism from the immaterial soul, that is causal in the material body.

Can you see the problem with your demands here?

 

[reggieM]

God doesn’t create things with deficiency.

God creates things to be perfectly what they are. That which is created is contingent and thus deficient in knowledge and power but has the potential of being joined to the source of all being through spiritual growth.

Moreover we are talking about logic here. We are cognitively open to understand logic.

Even in terms of logic,

P1 God is immaterial with absolute infinite knowledge, understanding, power and exists transcendent to the beginning of human life on earth.
P2 In order to know the origin, capability and functioning of immaterial souls created by God, one would need to share God’s capabilities and experience His creative act from His perspective.
P3 Human beings do not have absolute infinite knowledge, understanding and power, and did not exist when God created the first souls.

So, your question is illogical. You’re expecting human reason (without revelation from God) to understand that which only God could know.

 

[reggieM]

Ok, lets start with one: The act of creation is like A(N)->U where A is the act of creation when there is nothing, N, and that leads to universe, U. Time is a part of U. Time in another hand is required to describe the act of creation (we have a two step state N and U which one comes after another) therefore such an act is impossible.

Time is required to describe it but not to enact it.

 

[STT]

What you’re saying is you want a physical relation between body and soul.
So, you want a material mechanism from the immaterial soul, that is causal in the material body.

Can you see the problem with your demands here?

Yes, I am aware of that problem. That is a problem of dualism. Do you have any solution for that?

 

[STT]

God creates things to be perfectly what they are. That which is created is contingent and thus deficient in knowledge and power but has the potential of being joined to the source of all being through spiritual growth.

So you agree that we have capacity to know everything.

Even in terms of logic,

P1 God is immaterial with absolute infinite knowledge, understanding, power and exists transcendent to the beginning of human life on earth.

What do you mean with infinite knowledge? We are cognitively open to knowledge.

P2 In order to know the origin, capability and functioning of immaterial souls created by God, one would need to share God’s capabilities and experience His creative act from His perspective.

We are not talking about creation of soul but the fact that there are problems within dualism.

P3 Human beings do not have absolute infinite knowledge, understanding and power, and did not exist when God created the first souls.

So, your question is illogical. You’re expecting human reason (without revelation from God) to understand that which only God could know.

As I mentioned we are talking about logical issues within dualism. We can understand them very well but have no solution for.

 

[STT]

Time is required to describe it but not to enact it.

Time in fact is needed to enact the act of creation. You have two steps, nothing and then the universe, one following another one. This requires time.

 

[tafan]

Time in fact is needed to enact the act of creation. You have two steps, nothing and then the universe, one following another one. This requires time.

So if one accepts your logic, regardless of creation, the universe must have always existed? It is infinitely old?

 

[reggieM]

Yes, I am aware of that problem. That is a problem of dualism. Do you have any solution for that?

Yes.
First, one needs to assert a belief that immaterial entities exist. Do you?
Second, one should not attempt to describe immaterial functions with materialist mechanisms, as you have been doing.

If you can agree on those two steps, we can move further. Ok?

 

[reggieM]

So you agree that we have capacity to know everything.

We have the capacity to fulfill our nature as human beings and part of that is to possess an infinitely growing knowledge that has no limit (and therefore cannot terminate in “knowing everything”).

What do you mean with infinite knowledge? We are cognitively open to knowledge.

Ok, you don’t agree with this statement?

P1 God is immaterial with absolute infinite knowledge, understanding, power and exists transcendent to the beginning of human life on earth.

Or are you saying that human beings have absolute infinite knowledge, such as the experiential knowledge of how the universe was created?

We are not talking about creation of soul but the fact that there are problems within dualism.

The properties of the soul are found in the origin and design of the soul - so yes, we are talking about the creation of the soul.

You don’t seem to like this point that I’ve raised a couple of times in different ways:

You’re expecting human reason (without revelation from God) to understand that which only God could know.