Free will and God himself

[MrleftHand]

Hey y’all, I need your help. Now before I start lemme say a few things: 1 I am highly involved In youth group and I am in charge of coming up with games for the kids on Wednesdays. 2 I am 13 so I may not be the brightest. 3 I am 13 and am going trough puberty…
So anyways I have a distinct memory of when I was young ( like 6 or 7 ) and clicked on a link on a yt? Video. I did not know it then but it took me to pornhub and started a video. I often think back to that video and Well…you guys will know … Should I repent for my sins? Pls don’t be harsh

 

[heybulldog]

Do you have an argument you would like to present, or do you just like to post pictures of yourself?

 

[JoeVig]

It does. Thank you for taking the time ti respond. On that road, if we make a free will decision to change roads, we see it as a change in a given moment, Gid sees it as a change, period. But what was affected by that change was already, because time does not exsist.
Yep, there i go confusing myself again.
I give up, God knows, thats what matters and I trust Him

Thank You again

 

[heybulldog]

So, just because I don’t accept a answer means I’m a troll? and I wouldn’t change my mind? I used to be a believer and when I looked into it and heard the arguments for and against, “I changed my mind”. I made the OP because I can’t see how we have free will if an all powerful, all knowing god Knows without a doubt what is going to happen. If an all powerful, all knowing god knows without a doubt that I’m going to eat pizza for lunch next Thursday, How can I not eat pizza for lunch next Thursday?

 

[heybulldog]

Isn’t your gods name Yahweh? isn’t that the proper noun?

 

[heybulldog]

There is no set of possible universes from which God chooses

so, your god is not all powerful? His choices are limited?

(Even if there were, are you really so self-centered to think that God should make his ‘decision’ based on one person, to the exclusion of all others?)

Again is your got not all powerful? Could he not make a decision based on what is good for everyone?

 

[heybulldog]

Not saying Knowledge = causality. What I am saying is that it looks to me like “absolute” knowledge = causality. Can’t see how if someone knows without a doubt that something is going to happen, that it will not happen, whether you choose to do it or not. looks to me like you only have one choice. which isn’t a choice at all.

 

[SMHW]

I will agree that if God knows you will die an atheist, then you will in fact die an atheist. These are parallel but independent results.

I suggest that God’s knowledge is not a cause of your life-ending state but rather that both God’s knowledge and your final life choice are the results of God’s status as Creator.

The mere fact that God creates is a necessary condition for any choices you will later make but not a sufficient condition. The fact that you make use of the gift of free will is the reason for your ultimate condition. Because God creates, and time is one of His creations, he sees beyond his creation to its fulfillment. But this ability to see creation is independent of your exercise of your free will.

Freedom is a truly terrifying gift.

 

[Gorgias]

@heybulldog, I want to give you credit – you’re really working it! Just not being effective at baiting. Nice try, though…

Gorgias:

There is no set of possible universes from which God chooses

so, your god is not all powerful? His choices are limited?

Nope, it’s not that God isn’t omnipotent. However, the construct “set of all possible universes” doesn’t exist, so it’s not like God was at a buffet restaurant and said, “I’ll take that one right there.” Rather, being omnipotent, He created the universe as He saw fit.

(Even if there were, are you really so self-centered to think that God should make his ‘decision’ based on one person, to the exclusion of all others?)

Again is your got not all powerful? Could he not make a decision based on what is good for everyone?

Again, yes He is omnipotent. Tell me – do you think it’s logically possible to create a universe that, by it’s definition, “is good for everyone”? In the context of your claim, that’s what you’re asking.

(Oh – and when you reply, “sure – nirvana!”, be ready for the follow-up question: what if it’s not God’s will that earth be nirvana, but that heaven be the place of eternal bliss?)

 

[HarryStotle]

Not saying Knowledge = causality. What I am saying is that it looks to me like “absolute” knowledge = causality.

You might be forgetting that absolute knowledge and absolute power might permit the creation of a universe where “absolute” knowledge does not equal causality.

In other words, God could create a universe that is beyond the ability of a limited intelligence like you to fully comprehend.

Can’t see how if someone knows without a doubt that something is going to happen, that it will not happen, whether you choose to do it or not. looks to me like you only have one choice. which isn’t a choice at all.

Ah, now there’s the rub. The fact that YOU can’t see how, does not necessarily entail that the HOW cannot possibly occur. And the fact that something “looks” to you as if it can’t be any different does not mean it can’t be different for absolute power and intelligence.

You may want to rethink what you think.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Isn’t your gods name Yahweh? isn’t that the proper noun?

YHWH is the Jewish representation for the phrase “I AM WHO AM,” which is the name God revealed to Moses. In essence, God’s name is the act of existing itself.

In our culture, we use God as the proper name; in Arabic cultures, Allah is the proper name. In other cultures, there are other iterations of the proper name commonly used. In all instances it is correct, and respectful to those you are engaging with, to capitalize.

 

[MysticMonist]

YHWH is the Jewish representation for the phrase “I AM WHO AM,” which is the name God revealed to Moses. In essence, God’s name is the act of existing itself.

In our culture, we use God as the proper name; in Arabic cultures, Allah is the proper name. In other cultures, there are other iterations of the proper name commonly used. In all instances it is correct, and respectful to those you are engaging with, to capitalize.

Thanks for saying this. Use of the name LORD does identify with the God of Israel in particular. My favorite name for God personally is HaShem or The Name.
The name of God is a very deep topic. “God” is my least favorite name, it’s such a pale expression of the Divine. Don’t get a semi-Kabbalist started on divine names
Thanks again for mentioning this, it deserves clarification.

 

[SalamKhan]

Free will vs. Predestination is an ancient debate. Proponents of absolute free will were so, because they believed that God is absolutely just, and predestination would compromise His justice. However, proponents of absolute free will have to deal with the dilemma of God’s knowledge, which is necessary, and the fact that we do not possess autonomous power and will, nor do we possess unrestricted choice in everything. Clearly, if God foreknew what He would create (which is necessary, otherwise without this foreknowledge He could not create anything), then He foreknew all the actions of His creatures, yet created them anyway, meaning He willed to do so. Secondly, we do not possess autonomous power and will, our actions are indeed contingent, meaning for example, if I were to shoot someone with a gun, it was possible that I didn’t shoot that someone at all, yet I cannot undo my action, nor could I simultaneously not pull the trigger at the time of pulling the trigger, not only that, for anything to occur outside of God’s autonomous will, would have to be equal to or greater than His autonomous will, which is impossible; therefore, our power and will are only derivative and not autonomous. Finally, we have choice, but it’s not unrestricted, for we do not choose for example when, where or how we are born, nor do we choose when, where or how we die; even when it comes to suicide, if I attempted to hang myself, I would not be certain that the rope would not snap and leave me to survive.

According to the orthodox Muslim theologians, who denied both absolute free will and absolute fatalism, the heretics made some mistaken assumptions:

1. That God is under any obligation- this is false for two reasons, (i) because an obligation makes one accountable to a higher authority, and there is no higher authority than God, and (ii) God is perfect in His entity, therefore He does not need to attain perfection by His actions.
2. That God’s will is identical to His command- nothing occurs except by God’s will, and without God’s will it would not occur. The assertion that will and command are identical is false in general, for a human judge may order a criminal to be punished but will for him not to be punished (due to empathy for example), of course due to humans not having autonomous power and will like God, this human judge’s will would not be fulfilled.

TO BE CONTINUED…

 

[SalamKhan]

CONTINUED…

Here I will cover the positions of the two orthodox schools of theology in Islam, that of the Asha`ris and the Maturidis, on the subjects of predestination, reward, punishment, etc.

The Asha`ris place emphasis on the autonomy of God’s power and will, for when exercising His power and will, bringing something into being, He could simultaneously, not bring that something into being, and therefore His ordainment and decree (collectively known as predestination) are both contingent. The very definition of tyranny or opression, is infringing on the rights and property of others, but it is impossible for God to encounter any property other than His own, and therefore injustice cannot be attributed to Him who has absolute dominion and ownership over everything. Lastly, the actions of His creatures do not in any way harm Him nor do they benefit Him, therefore it is His prerogative to reward the obedient and punish the disobedient, not His obligation.

The Maturidis place emphasis on God’s foreknowledge and wisdom, and do not believe His ordainment and decree can be changed. The creature is granted a contingent power, which in itself inclines towards neither good nor evil. The universe and everything in it therefore, is like that of a river flowing towards its already existing destination; and any change in the universe is like a pebble being dropped into the river, creating no impediment to the river’s destination, and God knows all this. The Maturidis do not believe in the possibility of God punishing the obedient and rewarding the disobedient, because they believe everything God does is according to His wisdom, and cannot contravene His wisdom.

Ultimately, both schools believe that God does not punish the obedient and reward the disobedient, the Asha`ris may believe in its possibility according to God’s will, but they do not believe there can be any falsehood in God’s knowledge and speech (otherwise His knowledge and speech would be contingent and not necessary) i.e. lying is an impossibility for God. Predestination also, is a deep ocean, and even the most knowledgeable of theologians can drown if they go too deep. For having detailed knowledge of predestination would require having detailed knowledge of God’s specific operations, and we cannot know of these things except what God has disclosed to us. The issue in Islam, is therefore summarised as free will being zahir (apparent), for we are responsible for our actions, and predestination being batin (a hidden reality).

I hope this helped, please read also my posts on God’s existence when you have the time:

Searching Faith Philosophy

Start from the existence of God. In Islamic theology, we say that there are three judgements: legal judgements, empirical judgements, and intellectual judgements. Science is related to empirical judgments, whilst the question of whether God exists is related to intellectual judgements. Read the following carefully, and multiple times if need be. There are three types of intellectual judgements: Necessary- the non-existence of which cannot be conceived of in the mind. Impossible- the existen…

 

[STT]

I am a little late in this thread and I didn’t have much time to read all comments. Here is my answer: The foreknowledge is unique and you always do what is in the foreknowledge. There is no conflict between free will and God’s foreknowledge as far as you don’t know the foreknowledge. You are assuming that you know the foreknowledge and can do the opposite which this is not the case unless through prophecy or direct revelation. That is where the conflict between God’s foreknowledge and your free will starts.