Free Will and Heaven

[Taestron]

I was recent listening to an old talk by Archbishop Fulton on the problem of evil, and he said that God gave free will to humans because it was His desire to create a moral universe which necessarily included free will and the possibility of evil. I was under the impression, however, that it is impossible for the saints to sin in the beatific vision due to a complete removal of the desire for sin while in the presence of God. But Adam and Eve were not created with the effects of original sin, and it was possible for them to sin. Does this mean that there is no free will in heaven or perhaps that there is no morality strictly speaking in heaven? I do not like either of these options.

 

[mab23]

interesting question!!

 

[ASimon]

I was recent listening to an old talk by Archbishop Fulton on the problem of evil, and he said that God gave free will to humans because it was His desire to create a moral universe which necessarily included free will and the possibility of evil. I was under the impression, however, that it is impossible for the saints to sin in the beatific vision due to a complete removal of the desire for sin while in the presence of God. But Adam and Eve were not created with the effects of original sin, and it was possible for them to sin. Does this mean that there is no free will in heaven or perhaps that there is no morality strictly speaking in heaven? I do not like either of these options.

Even if humans did have free will, I don’t see how it could be compatible with the concept of a Christian heaven. We’re told that heaven is a place of everlasting bliss, free of all suffering and sin. I honestly don’t see how this could be possible unless God stripped away everyone’s individuality and ability act on their own.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

I was recent listening to an old talk by Archbishop Fulton on the problem of evil, and he said that God gave free will to humans because it was His desire to create a moral universe which necessarily included free will and the possibility of evil. I was under the impression, however, that it is impossible for the saints to sin in the beatific vision due to a complete removal of the desire for sin while in the presence of God. But Adam and Eve were not created with the effects of original sin, and it was possible for them to sin. Does this mean that there is no free will in heaven or perhaps that there is no morality strictly speaking in heaven? I do not like either of these options.

The garden was paradise but it was not Heaven. It wans’t the Beatific vision was it? My understanding was otherwise.

 

[tonyrey]

The garden was paradise but it was not Heaven. It wans’t the Beatific vision was it? My understanding was otherwise.

An earthly paradise is not Heaven:

CCC 385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or** the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures**…

 

[tonyrey]

Even if humans did have free will, I don’t see how it could be compatible with the concept of a Christian heaven. We’re told that heaven is a place of everlasting bliss, free of all suffering and sin. I honestly don’t see how this could be possible unless God stripped away everyone’s individuality and ability act on their own.

Heaven is the result of choosing to live with God by rejecting evil and loving others as oneself.

 

[Poseidon]

Heaven is the result of choosing to live with God by rejecting evil and loving others as oneself.

So it’s basically like choosing to give up all desire to do evil? Isn’t that kind of like giving up free will?

 

[PRmerger]

Even if humans did have free will, I don’t see how it could be compatible with the concept of a Christian heaven. We’re told that heaven is a place of everlasting bliss, free of all suffering and sin. I honestly don’t see how this could be possible unless God stripped away everyone’s individuality and ability act on their own.

It’s possible to have free will and never choose to sin. Mary did that. Why couldn’t folks in heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

So it’s basically like choosing to give up all desire to do evil? Isn’t that kind of like giving up free will?

Not at all.

Take this analogy:

Imagine a woman living in a cabin in the woods on a hill. From her elevated position she can see the origin of a river. A town is dumping sewage into the river. Downstream there is a family living near the river. From their position they cannot see that a town is dumping sewage into the river, so they drink from that river.

However, the woman, from her vantage point, can see that the river is polluted–and while she certainly has the free will to drink from the river–has no desire to do so.

That, I think, is a wonderful way to portray the fact that there is no contradiction between having free will and never sinning.

 

[Taestron]

However, the woman, from her vantage point, can see that the river is polluted–and while she certainly has the free will to drink from the river–has no desire to do so.

That, I think, is a wonderful way to portray the fact that there is no contradiction between having free will and never sinning.

Thanks, this and tonyrey’s post help clarify the issue. It seems that there can be free will heaven because: a) the result of heaven only obtains in those who choose to be there, b) it does not hinder our free will to not have the desire to perform evil removed. However, I do not think that this solves the original question.

If we say that there is free will in Heaven, then the Problem of Evil remains unsolved. God could have made a moral universe where Adam and Eve had perfect knowledge of God and therefore no desire to do evil. But this makes the universe God did create less good than this hypothetical universe; this option is insufficient.

So we need to hypothesize some other change than mere perfection of knowledge. I cannot think of any other change except that in some mysterious way we share in the divine . However, this implies something stronger, I think, than a mere rejection of evil, but the actual impossibility of us choosing evil. Thus the universe can no longer be called “moral” in Heaven. But this means that God chose to create a moral universe with the possibility of evil only later to have it become an amoral universe. This does not seem adequate either.

I guess my real concern lies not with whether or not we have free will in heaven. Rather, it seems to me that due to the reality of heaven, can we really use free will to solve the problem of evil.

 

[PRmerger]

If we say that there is free will in Heaven, then the Problem of Evil remains unsolved. God could have made a moral universe where Adam and Eve had perfect knowledge of God and therefore no desire to do evil. But this makes the universe God did create less good than this hypothetical universe; this option is insufficient.

So let’s say that this universe that God did create is indeed “less good” than this hypothetical universe.

What does that mean to you? Why is that relevant?

So we need to hypothesize some other change than mere perfection of knowledge.

This seems to be a non-sequitur.

I cannot think of any other change except that in some mysterious way we share in the divine .

Indeed, we do. Thanks to the atoning death of Christ!

However, this implies something stronger, I think, than a mere rejection of evil, but the actual impossibility of us choosing evil.

How does a sharing in the divine presuppose the impossibility of us choosing evil? I share in the divine life at the Holy Mass. But that doesn’t make me incapable of choosing evil.

I guess my real concern lies not with whether or not we have free will in heaven. Rather, it seems to me that due to the reality of heaven, can we really use free will to solve the problem of evil.

We can, but only by the grace of God.

 

[Taestron]

So let’s say that this universe that God did create is indeed “less good” than this hypothetical universe.

What does that mean to you? Why is that relevant?

This is relevant to the problem of evil. One of the ways out of the paradox is to say that God created the best possible moral universe. But if the universe I described above is indeed a better universe and is still moral, then the problem of evil comes back in full force since God chose to create a moral universe with evil in it rather than one without. To avoid this situation, and still solve the problem of evil, we need to find some other explanation for the sinlessness of the saints in heaven than the perfection of their knowledge alone.

How does a sharing in the divine presuppose the impossibility of us choosing evil? I share in the divine life at the Holy Mass. But that doesn’t make me incapable of choosing evil.

I was under the impression that the participation in Holy Mass is of a different sort or magnitude than the participation in the divine in the Beatific Vision. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think it really matters with this issue. God is wholly good; it is impossible for God to sin. When the saints are in Heaven, they will have perfect knowledge and not be distracted by the evil which confuses those of us on Earth. So when they participate in the divine in Heaven, they are perfectly sharing in the wholly benevolent nature of God. Thus I say they will not and cannot sin.

We can, but only by the grace of God.

Amen to that. I am not terrible interested in the exact particulars of Heaven, but I am very interested in trying to solve the problem of evil.

 

[PRmerger]

This is relevant to the problem of evil. One of the ways out of the paradox is to say that God created the best possible moral universe.

Firstly, it is not a “paradox”.

Secondly, Catholicism does not proclaim that God created the best possible moral universe, so that paradigm is a red herring.

 

[PRmerger]

I was under the impression that the participation in Holy Mass is of a different sort or magnitude than the participation in the divine in the Beatific Vision.

True, this.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think it really matters with this issue. God is wholly good; it is impossible for God to sin. When the saints are in Heaven, they will have perfect knowledge and not be distracted by the evil which confuses those of us on Earth. So when they participate in the divine in Heaven, they are perfectly sharing in the wholly benevolent nature of God. Thus I say they will not and cannot sin.

Indeed.

And at the Divine Liturgy we participate in this. Heaven comes to earth in an implosion. As writer Annie Dillard says (paraphrasing): we ought not be wearing pretty Sunday hats to Mass, but rather crash helmets!

Amen to that. I am not terrible interested in the exact particulars of Heaven, but I am very interested in trying to solve the problem of evil.

But the problem of evil was already solved 2000 years ago.