Free Will and Predestination Unification Theory

[Rethomegram]

Let’s say I flip a coin three times and make a graph of the outcomes. Heads equals one (point) and tails equals zero. The y-axis goes from zero to three while the x-axis plots the number of attempts, starting from zero and going to 3 (+3 on the x axis). Along the x-axis, the points accumulate. Let’s say that I want to at least reach a value of two points at the end of my three attempts. So, I do my first flip and get tails (0). Then I do my second flip and still get tails. On my third try, I finally get heads, but this is not a satisfactory outcome, as the cumulative total equals only one point. This means that I am going to have to go back and “re-do” either the first or second flip of the coin to reach the desired point total.

It is my belief that God allows us to re-do moments in our lives when we face a challenge and wind up making the wrong decision. For example, if you participate in some personal sexual sin (and don’t tell a priest), and then you smoke some weed (and never confess), it’s possible that you will be marked for destruction on account of having a rebellious spirit. God, being able to see all events from start to finish, realizes (from the time you are born) how things will end and sends some invisible helper to influence your thoughts at the critical times when important decisions have to be made. God says, “Well, we can let the weed go, but the personal sexual sin can’t stand.” Next, he sends the angels to guilt trip you enough so that you wind up confessing your sin. BOOM… now you are no longer marked for destruction, your soul is saved, God sees the entirety of your “coin chart” and knows that your cumulative life total will get you into Heaven. Did God “make” decisions for you? No, but He DID actually help you out so that you could choose to do the right thing.

In my mind, God puts out as much help as is needed to get us where we need to be. Though He doesn’t ever violate our free will, He intervenes at the right moments in our lives so that the final outcome is satisfactory. If He wasn’t able to view the future and instantly tabulate all the “points” in our lives at the moment of birth, He wouldn’t be all-knowing. If he made all the decisions for us, we wouldn’t have free will. Therefore, if God knows exactly where to put on the pressure, he can influence us away from the kind of danger that will jeopardize our souls. God can “flip the coin” as many times at He likes, at any point in our lives. This doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want, but it DOES mean that we can rest assured that God is giving us the assistance we need if we will only TRY to follow His will.

 

[Freddy]

I think you’ve just described a conscience.

 

[Vico]

…

In my mind, God puts out as much help as is needed to get us where we need to be. Though He doesn’t ever violate our free will, He intervenes at the right moments in our lives so that the final outcome is satisfactory. If He wasn’t able to view the future and instantly tabulate all the “points” in our lives at the moment of birth, He wouldn’t be all-knowing. If he made all the decisions for us, we wouldn’t have free will. Therefore, if God knows exactly where to put on the pressure, he can influence us away from the kind of danger that will jeopardize our souls. God can “flip the coin” as many times at He likes, at any point in our lives. This doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want, but it DOES mean that we can rest assured that God is giving us the assistance we need if we will only TRY to follow His will.

Per Catholic dogma, God gives sufficient grace, but it is not irresistible. If a person cooperates then the grace is simultaneously given with the will of the person to cooperate.

 

[Gorgias]

Therefore, if God knows exactly where to put on the pressure, he can influence us away from the kind of danger that will jeopardize our souls.

By this definition, no one sins mortally and no one is in hell… right?

If that’s the case, then how do you explain the acts of mortal sin that actually do occur?

(BTW… I don’t think your conjecture here actually works.)

 

[Rethomegram]

If God didn’t give people the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and make corrections, it would defeat the purpose of punishment, right? Thanks for reading the post and taking the time to comment on it. Have faith that God will do what the Bible says He will do at Revelation 21:4 - “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” This verse describes a happy ending as one would expect from the Almighty. Do I need to amend my model so that it meets someone’s expectations?

 

[Gorgias]

If God didn’t give people the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and make corrections, it would defeat the purpose of punishment, right?

That’s not what your claim is, though: you’re attempting to argue that God doesn’t allow us to make mistakes – that He intervenes and prevents the mistake from occurring, right? That’s a whole different ballgame!

(And, BTW, I disagree with your statement – punishment (or, more appropriately, “consequences of sin”) speak to God’s justice rather than purely to human reformation.

Have faith that God will do what the Bible says He will do at Revelation 21:4 - “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” This verse describes a happy ending as one would expect from the Almighty.

Does this verse apply to all people, however? That’s the case you’re attempting to make, and the verse doesn’t say what you’re asserting it says.

Do I need to amend my model so that it meets someone’s expectations?

Yes: God’s.

 

[Rethomegram]

If you know anything about the so-called Tree of Life or three pillars (i.e., Boaz and Jachin), you will understand that God finds a balance between severity and mercy. So, although it is possible for us to make moderate mistakes and learn from them, it is the more serious mistakes that must undergo the correction process. God works in mysterious ways, and so it appears that He allows serious mistakes to stand, uncorrected. I have faith that if I mess up so badly that I move beyond the point of no return, our Heavenly Father will reroute me into a different set of circumstances so that everyone (including me) benefits from the challenges life has to offer. God is called “Father” for a reason, and this is because we are like children to Him, compared to His intelligence and unlimited power. The Prodigal Son was very rebellious, yet his father welcomed his return. Why would God eliminate both the route back to him and correction procedures? If a rebellious teenager stole makeup from a store and got arrested, should the parents tie her up in the basement and apply a shock prod to her most sensitive parts every day, for the remainder of her life? No, of course not. Mom and Dad would correct her thinking and, lovingly, give her another chance to get it right. Well, this is how our Father, the Grand Creator treats his grandest of creations: us! Anything less than adequate rebalancing / reconfiguring and a path back home would be absolute madness. Matthew 19:26 Jesus says, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” As humans, we think more like animals in terms of retaliation, revenge, killing, devouring, etc., but this is NOT how occupants of the spiritual realm think. “As below, so above?” I would have to say no.

 

[Rethomegram]

I feel like what you are attempting to do is justify severe and irrational punishment for sins committed here on earth, particularly the “deadly sins” for which it is said there is no remedy. I find that, when talking to people about the afterlife, Heaven/Hell, etc., it is not surprising to hear that they want bad things to happen to those who they feel deserve it. It’s only natural for us to want revenge, and we expect God to “get people back” for us. But, I ask you to consider this: should we make God in OUR image, or should we conform to GOD’S image? Hmm… How about Matthew 5:44? " “…I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.” Clearly, the mindset that Jesus is trying to convey is counter-intuitive to normal human thought, yet it is RIGHT thinking. So, next time we are hoping that someone will go to Hell, let’s do a “Jesus check” and make sure we are not defaulting back into worldly thought. Actually, it is a terrible form of black magick to look at someone with a jealous or hateful eye. It is called the “evil eye” and casting it upon others, despite their actions, hurts US just as much as it curses the target, if not more!

 

[Rethomegram]

In a nutshell: we should view God as a loving Father who nurtures and protects us from harm, even from the harm that we do to ourselves. If you want to see it some other way, then that is your prerogative. People believe different things, and there are innumerable schools of thought within Christianity. The notion of God as torturer is ridiculous, and it’s just impossible for me to ever entertain such lunacy.

Back to the main idea of my post, it has less to do with levels of punishment than it does with showing that you can have both predestination and free will happening at the same time. If key events in your life are predestined, then it makes sense that God will send extra help your way to assist you to freely make the right decisions. How many times this can happen (e.g., turning back time) or the degree of spiritual involvement is up for debate. I’m just saying that predestination and free will are not mutually-exclusive ideas.

 

[Gorgias]

God works in mysterious ways, and so it appears that He allows serious mistakes to stand, uncorrected.

Can you show me Church teaching or Scriptural support for this concept? I’m not seeing it anywhere, as such.

I have faith that if I mess up so badly that I move beyond the point of no return, our Heavenly Father will reroute me into a different set of circumstances so that everyone (including me) benefits from the challenges life has to offer.

If, by that, you mean that God makes the offer of forgiveness if you repent and commit to turn away from sin, then I agree. If you’re suggesting that He just gives you a pass, then your idea is wholly un-Scriptural.

The Prodigal Son was very rebellious, yet his father welcomed his return.

That’s because he returned contrite and asking for forgiveness and promising to amend his life.

If a rebellious teenager stole makeup from a store and got arrested, should the parents tie her up in the basement and apply a shock prod to her most sensitive parts every day, for the remainder of her life? No, of course not. Mom and Dad would correct her thinking and, lovingly, give her another chance to get it right. Well, this is how our Father, the Grand Creator treats his grandest of creations: us! Anything less than adequate rebalancing / reconfiguring and a path back home would be absolute madness.

No. Here’s why:
While we’re here on this earth, we have the opportunity to repent and change our life. Once we’ve died, however, we are unable to do so – the state of our soul will never change, once we pass away. Therefore, if we die in a state of mortal sin, then we will never turn aside from that rejection of God. So, “eternal condemnation” is as much a recognition of our own human state in eternity as it is a reflection of God’s justice and mercy. Would it be merciful to force you to accept a God whom you eternally reject? Of course not!

That’s why hell isn’t “retaliation” or “revenge” or even (strictly speaking) “divine punishment”. It’s the logical result of God abiding by the free will which He gives us. We choose… and He respects our choice.

 

[Gorgias]

I feel like what you are attempting to do is justify severe and irrational punishment for sins committed here on earth

Huh? Really? 'Cause Jesus asserted that precise thing!

So, next time we are hoping that someone will go to Hell

Wait! WAIT!!! Who in the world “hopes someone will go to hell”??? Not I! Not any Catholic or Christian I know! Not – I truly hope – you! So… who wishes hell on a person???

The notion of God as torturer is ridiculous, and it’s just impossible for me to ever entertain such lunacy.

I agree – that notion is ridiculous. It’s also not a notion that the Church proposes. You should reject it. However, in rejecting it, you should also not reject the teaching of Christ on the notion of eternal reward and eternal punishment.

How many times this can happen (e.g., turning back time) or the degree of spiritual involvement is up for debate.

No it isn’t. The answer is simple: zero times. God doesn’t rewind your life and give you “do-overs”.

 

[Rethomegram]

Jesus is a “do-over” of sorts in that Adam and Eve were told that the wages of sin is death. God formulated a plan to pay back that price by allowing Jesus to fix the problem. That’s kind-of like getting sent to Hell and then having God formulate a way to bail you out. In other words, the human race was condemned to death permanently (through one single act of disobedience), but the status of that punishment was changed from being permanent to being lifted completely, though on on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Rethomegram]

There are some who believe that going to Hell is a torturous experience that will last for all eternity with no chance of parole. Should I reject this idea? Also, when somebody does a very bad thing, people often want him or her to be punished by God so that justice can be served. Many feel that the only way for a bad person to get proper punishment is to die and go to Hell. It’s almost as if they would be disappointed if there were no such thing as Hell.

 

[EndTimes]

There are some who believe that going to Hell is a torturous experience that will last for all eternity with no chance of parole. Should I reject this idea?

You’ve the Free Will to accept OR reject…

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus is a “do-over” of sorts in that Adam and Eve were told that the wages of sin is death.

You’re kinda moving the goalposts. It’s not the kind of “do-over” that you’ve been suggesting. If it were, then the “Jesus do-over” would have the character of “hey, guys, I’m here now, so go ahead and take advantage of the opportunity to re-live and undo all your past sins!”

The “do-over” that Jesus offers is substantially different: believe in Him, repent, and commit to a new standard of life.

That’s kind-of like getting sent to Hell and then having God formulate a way to bail you out.

That’s kind-of nothing like that!

In other words, the human race was condemned to death permanently (through one single act of disobedience)

Nope! Please re-read Genesis 3:15 – even at the point of the “one act of disobedience”, God is promising redemption! That’s not “permanent” at all!!!

There are some who believe that going to Hell is a torturous experience that will last for all eternity with no chance of parole. Should I reject this idea?

No. The Church teaches that the primary pain of hell is separation from God; that it is eternal; that it is a final destination. These things are what you should believe about hell.

Also, when somebody does a very bad thing, people often want him or her to be punished by God so that justice can be served.

That’s on their conscience; it’s not what the Church teaches.

 

[SPBlitz]

I feel like what you are attempting to do is justify severe and irrational punishment for sins committed here on earth, particularly the “deadly sins” for which it is said there is no remedy.

So, I think what you are trying to do is make Hell out to be not that bad, in that it is either not truly painful or not truly eternal. And I can sort of see your point. Why would God send someone eternally to painful torment? Surely he would do something to arrest that?

I think your mistake is assuming that the pain of Hell is externally applied by God (in the form of fire or torture or something), and that all God has to do is remove this external pain and the soul would then no longer be in Hell. But I think this is mistaken. The pain and suffering from Hell is simply the damned soul being what it is. As CS Lewis puts it “to be an ex-man or ‘damned ghost’ - would presumably mean to consist of a will utterly centred in itself and passions utterly uncontrolled by the will”. Heaven consists in a soul willingly conforming its will to God’s. Or in other words, in allowing God to transform the soul into a blessed soul. But what if the soul were to refuse? This state of refusal is simply what we mean by being damned, ie being in Hell.

But why is Hell eternal? Surely God would eventually let the soul leave? But what if the soul were to eternally refuse? What if the soul, forever and ever, refuses to allow God to change it into a blessed soul? Well then it would remain in Hell forever. I think your confusion lies in conflating eternity with infinity. If Hell were infinite in duration, then presumably the soul could eventually change its mind. But Hell is eternal, and the definition of eternal is ‘all moments being present’. Therefore, if a soul is unrepentant at one point in eternity, then by definition it is unrepentant at all points in eternity. So it would never be ‘released’ from Hell.

 

[Rethomegram]

This is a really good response, except that I don’t get the one-point-equals-all-points explanation (with regards to eternity). From a Bible standpoint, the idea of Hell as being a torture zone is somewhat debatable, depending on who you talk to. This was the starting point for Charles Russell, founder of the organization that would later become Jehovah’s Witnesses. How could God be someone who tortures people? It’s a great question! And, of course, the corollary to this is, “Why would God torment someone by keeping them in a state of damnation when they have experienced a change of heart?” IMHO, our journey through life is to learn, grow, and evolve. Some would even say the purpose is to “remember” what we already know (but forgot). God has always been interested in guiding us and is often depicted as being lenient, or at least open to compromise and negotiation. He is reasonable, and that is exactly why He is God in the first place! The Prodigal Son story is really the ONLY story we need to know in understanding God’s intentions for us. We may have to pay a price for our mistakes (especially in the form of lost opportunities), but the Father’s arms are always open, despite what some may say.

 

[Rethomegram]

The so-called protoevangelium is very loosely supported at best. Bruising the heads and heels of offspring could be interpreted a number of ways, including literally. Verse 19 can certainly be taken literally. Dust will return to dust. What else could it mean? Adam, so it seems, was not supposed to go back into the ground, but that is what wound up happening. Could God recreate Adam, giving him the same personality and memories? Yes! Why COULDN’T God do that? Maybe this is your third, fourth, or fifth iteration and you don’t know it, Gorgias! How COULD you know? We are like chickens trying to learn Calculus (God’s will and methods). All we can do is cluck and speculate… as far as our limited chicken brains can take us. Though you mock my “kind-of” phraseology, I will refrain from mocking YOU. It’s called an “ad hominem” attack. Anyways, I was being a bit facetious.

But YA, it actually IS a do-over because mankind had been condemned to death and THEN God bailed out mankind (from this punishment) by making it so that we DON’T have to go back into the ground. Mathematically, it goes something like this: Life=1 + Death(sin)=-1, then Jesus added a +1 back into the equation, so Death went away and was no longer a sentence. That’s like you (+1) getting locked up for a crime (-1), … now at zero (death) … but then your lawyer intervenes and the charges are dropped (+1). So, you get bailed out through Jesus and don’t have to go back into the ground (necessarily). At least there is an option now.

As for people wanting Hell to exist, it’s because they (almost anyone you ask) wants there to be justice served after a bad person dies. If someone kills your loved one and commits suicide, there is no justice served in this life and - therefore - people yearn for some payback in the afterlife. It’s a longing that victims (or families of victims) naturally feel. Therefore, we have Hell!

As for church teachings, you cite that separation from God is eternal BECAUSE the church says so. Don’t “should” on me LOL! 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, “Test all things; hold fast to what is good.” Doesn’t this give us the right to question the decisions of our authorities (for the sake of learning, at least), or are we just a bunch of robots, always spitting out whatever data has been programmed into our brains?

 

[Gorgias]

The so-called protoevangelium is very loosely supported at best.

If you say so… but I would say that the catechism is pretty good support.

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall.304 This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.

Could God recreate Adam, giving him the same personality and memories? Yes! Why COULDN’T God do that? Maybe this is your third, fourth, or fifth iteration and you don’t know it, Gorgias! How COULD you know?

Because God has revealed to us that this isn’t how it works:

it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment

(Hebrews 9:27)

Though you mock my “kind-of” phraseology,

Nah… I’m just pointing out that it’s not accurate. That’s not “ad hominem”, that’s to the argument itself!

As for people wanting Hell to exist, it’s because they (almost anyone you ask) wants there to be justice served after a bad person dies.

I think you’re talking to the wrong people.

As for church teachings, you cite that separation from God is eternal BECAUSE the church says so. Don’t “should” on me

Huh? No… I’m saying it’s so because that’s what Jesus himself taught!

Doesn’t this give us the right to question the decisions of our authorities

Are you saying you have the right to question Jesus? Good luck with that one.

 

[Freddy]

But why is Hell eternal? Surely God would eventually let the soul leave? But what if the soul were to eternally refuse?

Is this even remotely conceivable?