Free Will and Science

[Rocinante]

clearing your mind of thoughts? He’s reaching IMO. I’ll lose my “self” in my next game of darts and chaulk it up as a “mystical experience”

enjoy your dart game, but you clearly have no idea of what he is talking about. i would look up Teresa of Avila if you want a catholic perspective on the phenomenon.

 

[Anselm33]

We must believe in free will; we have no choice (Isaac Balshevis Singer)
There are several experimental and theoretical results from science that demonstrate the above quote (although there is debate about their interpretation):

1. The Libet delayed choice experiment: electrodes are attached to a subject’s head and the impulses and time measured when a) the subject decides he/she is going to punch a button, b) when the button is punched. The interesting thing is that there is a pre-decision rise of the brain potential (starting as much as 2 seconds before the subject is consciously aware of his/her decision), so something is stirring in that mass of jelly we call the brain to compel? or recognize? a decision. Lots of online references, but here’s a Youtube video that describes the experiment concisely and accurately:
   youtube.com/watch?v=IQ4nwTTmcgs
2. The quantum mechanical "delayed choice experiment proposed by John Wheeler and realized experimentally most rigorously by Aspect in 2007 (?). If a particle goes through a two-slit arrangement (properly arranged) then a Young interference diffraction pattern will occur, i.e. wavelike behavior; if one of the slits is closed, then classical behavior, i.e. no diffraction. Now if a slit is closed AFTER the particle has gone through, then it will behave as if the slit had been closed before it had passed, through, i.e. the experimenter’s free choice (if indeed, he/she had free choice) reached backwards in time. Wheeler’s original gedanken experiment was to use a galaxy as an optical lens, and so create a two beam path from a star behind the galaxy; the delayed choice experiment would then reach back in time millions of years. Here are some web sites to flesh out the above short description:
   onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3615
   bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm
   Responses from psychologist/neurologists, philosophers, physicists sought and welcomed.

There are several atheists/non-believers here who are spouting off about free will and appear to know nothing about either the basic science or philosophy required for intelligent discussion of this subject (I don’t mean you Innocente) and the comments appear to have strayed off topic, prompted by the Screwtape within one or another of the non-believing posters…
The best web sites for recent philosophical discussions of free will and evil are given by Robert Koons, a philosopher at the University of Texasleaderu.com/offices/koons/docs/lec6.html
leaderu.com/offices/koons/docs/lec21.html
leaderu.com/offices/koons/docs/lec22.html
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy also has some interesting articles on Free Will and Quantum Mechanics (here’s just one):
plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/
And the links previously given.
Again, comments by people who have some knowledge in either the philosophical, neurological or quantum mechanical aspects of this question (particularly for the last, concerning the delayed choice experiment) are eagerly sought.
And grannymh, I agree with you (I think) that free will is a gift given by God to men, but I’m not sure how or when.

 

[Rocinante]

The first human, Adam had free will.

i was talking about the idea of free will rather than the first person to have it.

but an evolutionary view makes it very difficult to think of there being a first man created out of mud whom god breathed the breath of life into.

 

[grannymh]

i was talking about the idea of free will rather than the first person to have it.

but an evolutionary view makes it very difficult to think of there being a first man created out of mud whom god breathed the breath of life into.

I wouldn’t bet the farm on mud being a Catholic dogma.

The first person to have free will would also have the intellect which accompanies it. Therefore, the first idea of free will would be at the same time that free will was first exercised by the first, true, fully complete human being. Intellect and will belong to the rational/corporeal nature of the person.

 

[Rocinante]

I wouldn’t bet the farm on mud being a Catholic dogma.

if not then what is the teaching on the matter? does that mean that eve wasn’t made from a rib?

The first person to have free will would also have the intellect which accompanies it. Therefore, the first idea of free will would be at the same time that free will was first exercised by the first, true, fully complete human being. Intellect and will belong to the rational/corporeal nature of the person.

having free will isn’t the same thing as believing you have free will or even conceiving of the concept.

i wouldn’t think the issue would have even arisen until the advent of theological discourse and attempts to reconcile god’s omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence. the idea of free will is not universal. buddhists for example do not accept the notion.

rocinante

 

[NE_Catholic]

enjoy your dart game, but you clearly have no idea of what he is talking about. i would look up Teresa of Avila if you want a catholic perspective on the phenomenon.

I had another one of those “experiences” during the Pats/Vikings game. Also during Mass. In fact, I had one while walking my dogs.

 

[Rocinante]

I had another one of those “experiences” during the Pats/Vikings game. Also during Mass. In fact, I had one while walking my dogs.

i don’t get it. now you’re just making fun but this is so strange because it is generally atheists rather than religious people who dismiss “mystical” or “religious” or “spiritual” experiences.

 

[NE_Catholic]

i don’t get it. now you’re just making fun but this is so strange because it is generally atheists rather than religious people who dismiss “mystical” or “religious” or “spiritual” experiences.

I’m dismissing his “nirvana” type reasoning behind his story. His whole “conscience is an illusion”. Hey, I lost my “self” AGAIN last night on a bike ride!

 

[grannymh]

if not then what is the teaching on the matter? does that mean that eve wasn’t made from a rib?

Many Catholics believe the tradition of Eve being made from Adam’s rib. In my personal opinion, given the pre-scientific era, it doesn’t make too much difference how the creation of Eve is presented.

I use the universal catechism for teachings as to what the “rib” tradition really entails. The* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*, refers to Genesis 2: 21-23 and then adds an important theological meaning: “Man discovers woman as another “I,” sharing the same humanity.” CCC 371. In God’s plan, man and woman, in their respective beings, have been created in perfect equality as human persons.

The Catholic Church is different from Fundamentalism. It uses its authority to interpret, teach, and promote Divine Revelation. Thus, Catholicism sees beyond the descriptions in the first three chapters of Genesis, to the Word of God.

Catholics are welcomed to believe that Eve was formed from Adam as long as they recognize that both are created with the same human nature and as such are created in the Image of God. It is my personal understanding, that from “a rib” can be shorthand for the actual event. In my humble opinion, too often people erroneously get hung up on the how Divine Revelation is communicated and thus they are blind to God’s truth which is the what of communication.

Special note – Because free will is necessary to human nature (as the Catechism and Genesis describes) it would exist since the first appearance of human nature in the pre-scientific era.

Blessings,
granny

Basic Catholic teaching **regarding “Male and Female He created them” **
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 369-373.
The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

 

[grannymh]

the idea of free will is not universal. buddhists for example do not accept the notion.
rocinante

Free will is considered an objective, essential attribute of human nature. Therefore free will does not need anyone to affirm its existence.

 

[Rocinante]

Free will is considered an objective, essential attribute of human nature. Therefore free will does not need anyone to affirm its existence.

i thought the question of the existence of free will was under consideration here rather than being accepted as a mere dogma.

 

[grannymh]

i thought the question of the existence of free will was under consideration here rather than being accepted as a mere dogma.

Catholic dogma’s can also point to actual events and also to your own human nature. Free will is part of your human nature and thus it had to be part of the nature of the first human being in the pre-scientific era.

Don’t shoot the messenger, please!

 

[stenlis]

What is ‘free will’ anyway? I never heard a good definition.

I heard a definition of a ‘will’ - the ability of agents to make decisions. Sounds good enough for me. But what is the ‘free’ part? How do you define what constraints an agent has to be free from to qualify for ‘free will’?

 

[Rocinante]

What is ‘free will’ anyway? I never heard a good definition.

I heard a definition of a ‘will’ - the ability of agents to make decisions. Sounds good enough for me. But what is the ‘free’ part? How do you define what constraints an agent has to be free from to qualify for ‘free will’?

[crickets chirping]

 

[grannymh]

[crickets chirping]

My good friend, what does “crickets chirping” mean? In my neighborhood, they are a delightful sound outside. But when I hear crickets chirping in the house, I sneak up and stomp on them.

 

[reggieM]

My good friend, what does “crickets chirping” mean? In my neighborhood, they are a delightful sound outside. But when I hear crickets chirping in the house, I sneak up and stomp on them.

It means that we were all so stunned by the unanswerable power of that question that the only sound we can hear now is the crickets chirping.

 

[Rocinante]

My good friend, what does “crickets chirping” mean? In my neighborhood, they are a delightful sound outside. But when I hear crickets chirping in the house, I sneak up and stomp on them.

i was just hoping someone would answer stenlis’s question.

 

[inocente]

[crickets chirping]

The OP doesn’t ask a religious question, just a question. It’s a hard one though. If we are made of stardust then what could have happened to the dust that allows us to make free choices, or at least gives the illusion of freedom? Is it how the dust is organized or is something else going on?

Assuming of course your inalienable right to freely choose whether to post or not to post.

 

[Rocinante]

If we are made of stardust then what could have happened to the dust that allows us to make free choices, or at least gives the illusion of freedom?

but do we make free choices? what does that mean? free from what?

if someone else had lived my life and had had all the exact same experiences i have had up until now, wouldn’t they do exactly what i will do right now? if not, why not? in what sense would such a person even be “someone else”?

 

[NE_Catholic]

but do we make free choices? what does that mean? free from what?

if someone else had lived my life and had had all the exact same experiences i have had up until now, wouldn’t they do exactly what i will do right now? if not, why not? in what sense would such a person even be “someone else”?

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together



This thread is heading into 60’s territory.