Free will as an illusion?

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If you would, please, read this article and give your thoughts:

samharris.org/blog/item/free-will-why-you-still-dont-have-it/
The physiologist Benjamin Libet famously demonstrated that activity in the brain’s motor regions can be detected some 300 milliseconds before a person feels that he has decided to move. Another lab recently used fMRI data to show that some “conscious” decisions can be predicted up to 10 seconds before they enter awareness (long before the preparatory motor activity detected by Libet). Clearly, findings of this kind are difficult to reconcile with the sense that one is the conscious source of one’s actions.
My question relating to this is, how important is the notion of free will to our faith, and what do we make of findings and ideas like this one?
 
If you would, please, read this article and give your thoughts:

samharris.org/blog/item/free-will-why-you-still-dont-have-it/

My question relating to this is, how important is the notion of free will to our faith, and what do we make of findings and ideas like this one?
Bamaster:

IMHO, what atheists want is for us to have “perfect will.” But, only God has Perfect Will. (Of course, atheists will deny that, too.) So, since we humans aren’t provided with perfect will, we don’t have free will - as far as they’re concerned.

We define will as, the power or faculty by which a being is inclined toward a thing seen by the intellect as good. Free will is not the ability to choose between good and evil, but, more importantly, the ability to choose between good and good. The choices we make between good and good, are a perfection of our own beings as beings. The choice of evil is clearly not.

But, some will twist that. for their own motives. 👍

God bless,
jd
 
If you would, please, read this article and give your thoughts:

samharris.org/blog/item/free-will-why-you-still-dont-have-it/

My question relating to this is, how important is the notion of free will to our faith, and what do we make of findings and ideas like this one?
It is vital to our faith. If we can’t decide not to sin, then we cannot decide to accept or reject God, and therefore God would be damning us to hell for something that was out of our control. Catholics cannot believe in predestination.

First, I do not know what I will think next, as thinking is not acting. Thinking is a cause which emits an effect, but the effect is not controlled by the cause, which is why we have a brain. We think of an event before acting, though we do not have control of what we think. That is not what free will is, as the writer is correct, I have no more control of what I think in reality as what I do in a dream unless I condition myself to think of something else in a particular situation. The difference, however, between my dream and my reality is in a dream I am not limited by reason, and as a result I do crazy things that are impossible in reality. In reality however, I am limited by reason and physical reality, and as a result I think of an action before performing it. The thought is the precursor to the action. Take this, for example: about eight seconds ago an idea came into my mind. I can mistype. So, in this sentence, I will mistipe the word mistype. Now, is there a biological cause for me to mistype the word mistype? Of course not, though the cause of the idea is unknown and seemingly occurred as a response to a stimuli, but actually typing the word is a separate thought that originated from the first thought, and then I used a separate part of my brain to actually type it. That was not out of my control, for I determined that I would mistype the word mistype many seconds before I performed the action of mistyping.

The author either literally does everything he or she thinks, or does not understand free will. The author thinks choice is in some way not free will because it is dependent upon the uncontrollable conception of a previous thought, but free will does not imply that everything we think is under our control.

I can will to do what is harmful to me, which is biologically absurd, so such an idea would not be engrained in my DNA. If I have curable cancer but decide I would rather die than undergo chemotherapy, then that is a product of my own free will. The thought “I don’t want to go through chemotherapy,” and then naturally arriving at the thought of “I will not do chemotherapy” may originate uncontrollably in my brain, but the action of not having chemotherapy, which is equivalent to the author’s “not getting out of bed” example is entirely against my biological nature to survive until I can procreate.

As a side note, dogs do have free will. Anything with a conscious brain has free will. Obviously not to the capacity to determine morality, but certainly to the capacity to know that certain actions result in negative consequences, but to still do the action despite the negative consequences.

Free will does not mean free will in all actions; it means free will in all conscious actions. I cannot decide that I am sexually attracted to a man, but I do have the control not to have sex with the man even though it is completely contrary to my (evolutionary) biology.
 
Does God define what is good?
Yes. God is the greatest being that can exist, and therefore cannot exist bound by His creation. If God were evil, then God must be able to be all evil. And since deception is evil (to us) God must not be bound by his creation in deceiving. God cannot deceive me in the notion that I exist, for I exist because I am currently thinking. So God would be limited by me having to exist because I am thinking. So then one could say that God is limited by a square and a circle in that He cannot create a square circle, but then I would respond by saying a square circle doesn’t exist, for its existence would be contrary to being and therefore contrary to God’s omnipotence. I, however, do exist, and therefore God cannot be all evil unless it is not evil to deceive, for I would limit God in his ability to deceive.

On a side note, none of that was needed. Yes, God determines what is good simply because He is by his very nature the one that determines everything that is less than Him in being (except, of course, what He decides not to control).
 
Does God define what is good?
We define what is good for ourselves, but of course, with a little help from the natural law and other sources. Often we err.

We live in a world of distractions. It can be too easy to fail to discern the better good.

God bless,
jd
 
We define what is good for ourselves, but of course, with a little help from the natural law and other sources. Often we err.

We live in a world of distractions. It can be too easy to fail to discern the better good.

God bless,
jd
Wait, what do you mean? So murder could be good if I determine that murder is good? God’s laws are truly not what is good?
 
We have been created with a greatest good purpose, to love God and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. This freedom to love also gives us the freedom to do evil too.

Just a thought, when Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by the greatest commandments, Jesus would have loved his neighbours as he loved himself.
 
Aren’t we as Catholics suppose to believe in the concept of free will, isn’t that why mortal sin has to be intentional and willful?
 
Wait, what do you mean? So murder could be good if I determine that murder is good? God’s laws are truly not what is good?
What if you weren’t Catholic, didn’t believe in God, and didn’t give two hoots about the Bible? Do you think you would automatically find God’s laws to be truly what is good? You know, there are bad people out there.

God bless,
jd
 
What if you weren’t Catholic, didn’t believe in God, and didn’t give two hoots about the Bible? Do you think you would automatically find God’s laws to be truly what is good? You know, there are bad people out there.

God bless,
jd
I thought the question was relative to our faith and the study. I apologize. 🙂

I’ve spent too long on youtube debates; it has ruined me. I am more of a warrior now than a conversationalist, and often jump to conclusions on online discussions.
 
If you would, please, read this article and give your thoughts:

samharris.org/blog/item/free-will-why-you-still-dont-have-it/

My question relating to this is, how important is the notion of free will to our faith, and what do we make of findings and ideas like this one?
(1) We need to understand what stadium we’re in.
It is the brain-mind problem. Often today it is studied under the aspect of consciousness and whether or not consciousness can be reductively explained by science.

(2) We need to know how free-will is defined.
(a) Free will, like consciousness, is an inner, first-person experience: I experience myself as the agent of my behavior exercising varying measures of rational control.
(b) I also acknowledge that there is an unconscious mental ground of my conscious life.

(3) (a) Libet’s experiment can be explained by the unconscious.
(b) The second experiment needs to be explained in detail for it at all to be meaningful in this discussion. (I would also point out that my mother could predict my decisions 10 hours before I made them.)
Let me give an example. In a class discussion on the brain-mind problem I noted that no one has been able to look at a live brain and see a thought, feeling, image, etc. One student said that they just did an experiment and were able to look at the brain and see a thought. They gave me this article.

As it turns out a model was computer generated for a given individual viewing an image by the computer “viewing” it and simultaneously measuring blood flow patterns in the visual cortex via fMRI. The model was based on a series of such tests on the same individual only while viewing the image. Then the fMRI data alone was used for an image the computer did not “see” but the test subject did to see if the computer could generate the image (again only while the subject was viewing the image). Current Biology 21 (11 October 2011): 1641-1646] not 22 Sept.

You can see the results. They are hardly problematic nor do they constitute a rebuttal to my point.

(4) No scientist or group of scientists has claimed to have reductively explained consciousness experimentally and scientifically. In fact just the opposite.

(5) The rest of Harris’ article is ideological rhetoric not science; nor is it even a properly philosophical analysis of the problem.
 
bamaster

**My question relating to this is, how important is the notion of free will to our faith, and what do we make of findings and ideas like this one? **

You either believe in free will, or you don’t. You are either visiting CA as a deliberate and free act or you are driven here by an unconscious impulse over which you have no conscious control.

Which scenario do you prefer? 😃
 
If “Thoughts and intentions simply arise in the mind” there is no guarantee that our thoughts correspond to reality except on a very limited number of occasions. If we cannot choose what to think we are far more likely to be mistaken because there are countless wrong answers but only one that is right…
 
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