Free Will, can it logically exist?

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Originally Posted by Spirithound forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

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Originally Posted by glowingembers View Post
I’ll restate the OP’s argument simply:

*We act for a reason or without a reason (randomly). In both cases we don’t have free will and are not responsible for our actions. Our action is determined by a reason or by chance. And if you’d like to argue “Ok, but I can at least choose a reason…”, well, how do you choose it? Again, either for a reason or randomly. *
What if you’re presented with two equal options?
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glowingembers said:
Then you have no reason to prefer any of the options. If you do choose one of them, it will be without a reason - just randomly. Flipping a coin can make the choice for you.
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How does anyone say that free will is connected to a reason or to a chance?

Free will is an ability.

Like the ability to sing. One can sing for a good reason or one can sing automatically whenever the shower is on. Or one can shut up when someone else is in the apartment. Or one could have a sore throat which in my case would make the other person in the apartment very grateful.

The point is that one’s ability exists no mattter what reason or what chance opportunity is involved.

"At least choose a reason…? "
Remember fourth grade grammar, anyone? In that sentence “reason” is the object of the verb choose. And verbs are…?

Blessings,
granny

Human beings are capable of true freedom.
 
glowingembers said:
Then you have no reason to prefer any of the options. If you do choose one of them, it will be without a reason - just randomly. Flipping a coin can make the choice for you.
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The OP presents a false dilemma: our choices either have physical causes or they are random. It presupposes that we are no more than physical organisms. It overlooks the existence of the self and the possibility of self-determination. Our free will is the power to create and initiate activity.
We do not need a reason for choosing something. We can choose to be unreasonable. We can choose to behave irrationally. We can even choose not to choose!
 
grannymh said:
How does anyone say that free will is connected to a reason or to a chance?

Free will is an ability.
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Because whenever we act, we act for a reason or without a reason. There is no other possibility. Therefore whatever we do is determined by a reason or by chance, and the supposed ability of free will makes about as much sense as a round cube.
 
glowingembers said:
Because whenever we act, we act for a reason or without a reason. There is no other possibility. Therefore whatever we do is determined by a reason or by chance, and the supposed ability of free will makes about as much sense as a round cube.
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True – whenever we act, we act for a reason or without a reason. What would you say to looking at free will from another angle?

Like thinking about the kinds of reasons. I often drink Pepsi while on the forum. My two reasons are that I am somewhat addicted to Pepsi; but most of all, I like it. My only problem is that when I drink and read a funny post at the same time… :eek: This new format dashed all hope of a smile for a splattered keyboard.😉 On the other hand, when chocolate takes chances by being in plain view, eating it is definitely without a reason.

Until I actually decide to act – I can stay home from the Pepsi anonymous meeting; I will be deprived of my morning pleasure which compensates me for getting out of bed; my keyboard remains clean and dry; and all the chocolate on the kitchen counter can get that funny color as time goes on. Free will would definitely be a round cube with seven square faces if its location were in reasons or chance.

The fact is that free will is an ability or power that resides in human nature. And I do blame both me and my free will and not the poster’s sense of humor as I am once again wiping the keyboard. Chocolate, in no way, accepts responsibility for my scale complaining about being squashed. :rolleyes:

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
 
glowingembers said:
Because whenever we act, we act for a reason or without a reason. There is no other possibility.
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I think this is actually an improvement on the OP, since it does not rule out free will
Therefore whatever we do is determined by a reason or by chance, and the supposed ability of free will makes about as much sense as a round cube.
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I disagree with this part, however. It seems to me that if we make a choice based on some reasons, and we chose those reasons for other reasons, and perhaps we chose some of those reasons randomly, somewhere in there must be free will…but to those ends, has anybody here actually defined free will?
 
Spirithound said:
I think this is actually an improvement on the OP, since it does not rule out free will

I disagree with this part, however. It seems to me that if we make a choice based on some reasons, and we chose those reasons for other reasons, and perhaps we chose some of those reasons randomly, somewhere in there must be free will…but to those ends, has anybody here actually defined free will?
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Free will is an ability which is a basic part of human nature.

Essentially, free will is the power to prefer one action over another or to prefer no action. Free will can be used, denied, enhanced, ignored, hindered, and treasured. Its existence does not depend on logic or scientific explanation. Free will is inherent in humanity.
 
grannymh said:
Free will is an ability which is a basic part of human nature.

Essentially, free will is the power to prefer one action over another or to prefer no action. Free will can be used, denied, enhanced, ignored, hindered, and treasured. Its existence does not depend on logic or scientific explanation. Free will is inherent in humanity.
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Robots too have the power to prefer one action over another or no action, just according to their hardware and software. They can use their power or switch themselves off, and they can enhance their decision making based on their experiences (the data they collect).

Free will as it is defined in libertarian sense (I guess that’s the usual sense) entails an aspect of independence, an aspect that is not determined by any reason. This aspect, however, is randomness, so it cannot be controlled.
 
glowingembers said:
Robots too have the power to prefer one action over another or no action, just according to their hardware and software. They can use their power or switch themselves off, and they can enhance their decision making based on their experiences (the data they collect).

Free will as it is defined in libertarian sense (I guess that’s the usual sense) entails an aspect of independence, an aspect that is not determined by any reason. This aspect, however, is randomness, so it cannot be controlled.
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Robots are not responsible for their action whereas human beings are. Why the difference? It cannot be due to randomness. If it were, atomic particles would be responsible for their activity! :eek:
 
glowingembers said:
I wouldn’t call it a fact but an illusion, because I don’t see how it can work.
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This is not meant to be disrespectful, but I can’t see how free will works either. From my point of view, free will is invisible, that is, intangible. However, I know it exists from its results, especially when I am held accountable for running a red light when there was plenty of time and room to stop. Truthfully, that example is exaggerated a bit. The time I did go through a red light, I had stopped, looked both ways, and proceeded since nothing was coming. And I was half the age I am now. :eek:

In other words, we sense free will working as we prefer one action over another or no action at all. Many times there is not a lot of deliberation. A choice is made almost instantly or sometimes by habit – do I step on the gas or the brake. Regardless, we can be held responsible.

Another clarification is that our free will is not some independent agent with a book of rules. Our free will is part of our human nature and can be influenced by other parts such as hunger with Burger King on the other side of the intersection.

Sometimes, making a free will choice adds to the pleasure of a successful, worthwhile, and good action.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is amazing.
 
grannymh said:
This is not meant to be disrespectful, but I can’t see how free will works either.
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The fact that we can defy God’s will shows that free will is beyond our understanding. How can a creature frustrate the purpose of the Creator?
No one can understand how free will works because it is a gift from God which entails sharing in His creative power.
 
tonyrey said:
Robots are not responsible for their action whereas human beings are.
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That’s your unfounded claim. The fact that most people believe this is not a proof that it is true. People also used to believe that the earth is flat, which didn’t make it true either.
 
grannymh said:
This is not meant to be disrespectful, but I can’t see how free will works either. From my point of view, free will is invisible, that is, intangible. However, I know it exists from its results, especially when I am held accountable for running a red light when there was plenty of time and room to stop.
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That’s a proof that those who hold you accountable suffer from the illusion of free will, not a proof of free will. 🙂
grannymh said:
In other words, we sense free will working as we prefer one action over another or no action at all.
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We sense our preference, something we didn’t choose.
 
wasmit:

What I have difficulty in the free will question, is why does a free will choice only carry judicial weight when the factor of temptation is also present.

For instance Jake is tempted with a sexual temptation and submits to it. He made a wrong choice so he is culpable.

However, after analyzing his problem which he discovers after many confessions and prayerful pleading, is getting him deeper in trouble, he decides to apply the scripture advice, “if your hand is the cause of your problem it is better to cut it off and enter into heaven without it,etc…” (forget the exact wording). So after much contemplation, and realizing he’s sacrificing a gift, he prays to God that he no longer wishes to have any sexual component to his life, it just isn’t worth it. So, Jake regretfully, “turns in his badge” so to speak.

But this choice is not honored.

Andy
 
glowingembers said:
That’s your unfounded claim. The fact that most people believe this is not a proof that it is true. People also used to believe that the earth is flat, which didn’t make it true either.
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Was the Flat Earth Society’s’ choice responsible for the earth being flat? Keeping Free Will in proper perspective is important.
 
glowingembers said:
Free will as it is defined in libertarian sense (I guess that’s the usual sense) entails an aspect of independence, an aspect that is not determined by any reason. This aspect, however, is randomness, so it cannot be controlled.
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Please, would you describe the “aspect of independence” in regard to free will? I know you said that this aspect is randomness, but I am having a hard time picturing randomness as part of human nature. Of course, randomness played some part in the formation of cells and the genomic structure, but I don’t think that is what you are referring to.
Now, it is possible to hinder free will and ignore it completely. And there are situations such as being in a coma or totally intoxicated or at the point of a gun, when it would be impossible to use free will properly. But this kind of discussion is only profitable when both parties have a common understanding of free will.
 
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