Free Will? Did the Church Change its Teaching

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Hang on, I think you may be changing the subject a bit. I’d be glad to talk about whether God created a deadly machine and set it loose on us after you say whether you think the Thanksgiving analogy I gave earlier is a good analogy to God’s situation. Do you think it’s a reasonable analogy for offering salvation and some people not accepting it?
No…according to Christianity, we are thrust into this world, already stained for a sin we did not commit. We had no choice in our creation, but the creator already knew the outcome of our life. Their can be no free will under such conditions.
 
No…according to Christianity, we are thrust into this world, already stained for a sin we did not commit. We had no choice in our creation, but the creator already knew the outcome of our life. Their can be no free will under such conditions.
Is it possible that you’re making the assumption that the a hypothetical creator will always chose to maintain control?

Philosophically, any omniscient creator could chose to relinquish knowledge and/or control of any situation.
 
I had a very interesting class yesterday in Greek Philosophy. We are now moving into the neo-platonist period and talked mainly about the patristic period and Plotinus. One of the things our professor said is that originally the church did not believe in free will, that God had everything thought out. The co-existence of free will was heresy. He said that the church modified this teaching, but he also said that he could not p(name removed by moderator)oint at what time in church history this change happened.

Does anyone know the history of the church’s teaching on free willl…was it originally heresy…but has been adjusted to its present form …where we do have free will…

Bruce
Perhaps you missunderstood what your professor was saying. The Church has always upheld free will, it has never doubted that. I would ask your professor to clarify his remarks. And if he maintains his position to be what you just said it was then ask for the basis of this conviction, because he would be absolutely wrong.

Pax
Linus2nd
 
We had no choice in our creation, but the creator already knew the outcome of our life. Their can be no free will under such conditions.
It seems to me that there can be free will under such conditions, and the only way there couldn’t be is if we had no say in our own actions. It is our own choices that determine the outcome of our life, and those choices are merely foreknown. They’re still our free decisions. I think that resolves the difficulty, what do you think?
 
It seems to me that there can be free will under such conditions, and the only way there couldn’t be is if we had no say in our own actions. It is our own choices that determine the outcome of our life, and those choices are merely foreknown. They’re still our free decisions. I think that resolves the difficulty, what do you think?
You are forgetting the no choice in our creation issue…aren’t you?
 
Is it possible that you’re making the assumption that the a hypothetical creator will always chose to maintain control?

Philosophically, any omniscient creator could chose to relinquish knowledge and/or control of any situation.
Precisely
 
Precisely
The single reason everything in existence goes on existing…because God wills it to be in existence. If God so chose to withdraw from his creation, everything would fall into non-existence.

May God’s love and knowledge shine on you.
 
You are forgetting the no choice in our creation issue…aren’t you?
I don’t disagree that we have no choice in being created. However, the idea that we should have a choice in being created involves a logical contradiction. We cannot be asked whether we want to be created or not because we would not exist yet.

The idea that God’s foreknowledge excludes free will is also problematic, because it assumes that knowledge of an event causes that event.
 
Historically untrue.
The Church claims infallibility only in faith and morals and under certain restricted guidlines. Perhaps you or your professor or both have in mind something dealing with mere discipline or govenance. These latter are not matters of faith and morals so may be changed by competent authorities. For example, the Vatican has just approved married priests for the Eastern Right Catholics residing in the United States. This is a change from what has existed here in the past, but it is a matter of discipline and not of faith or morals and the change was made by the competent authority.

But the Church has always held that man has a free will. This is the entire basis for its traditional teaching on original sin. Adam and Eve could not have sinned unless they had free will. Nor could we. This teaching has never changed.

Linus2nd
 
I don’t disagree that we have no choice in being created. However, the idea that we should have a choice in being created involves a logical contradiction. We cannot be asked whether we want to be created or not because we would not exist yet.

The idea that God’s foreknowledge excludes free will is also problematic, because it assumes that knowledge of an event causes that event.
With knowledge comes responsibility…true for humans…true for gods.
 
You are forgetting the no choice in our creation issue…aren’t you?
And how, precisely, do you propose that a being who does not exist might assent to his creation?

Or, are you suggesting that God should be in the business of filicide, creating people just so that He can ask them whether they want to live and murdering any who might say ‘no’?

No, your pleading here is not rational – creation is a gift, freely given. At times in their lives, people may come to the conclusion that they wish the gift was never given, but that does not change the fact that it is a gift either freely given or deliberately withheld. You might prefer a God who withholds gifts; good luck with that one… 😉
 
Precisely
If God was constantly correcting our mistakes, that wouldn’t leave much room for Faith would it, and it would deprive him of the Glory he receives by bringing about a greater good. He loves us for our free decision to love and serve him. Without that our existence is pointless.

Linus2nd
 
Exactly…and omniscience carries with it a heavy burden if one is the creator. The Christian God is believed to have created each one of us individually. That would mean that He has created multitudes knowing that they would be condemned by there actions in life. He is complicit with their destruction. Further, He uses sins like rape and pre-marital sex to work His creation of some. A bit of a conflict, don’t you think, given His omniscience?
I happen to believe that God is Omniscient and it was/is because of this Omniscience, among other things, that God came up with a “Plan”, even before creation itself, one could even say that God’s Plan is the “blueprint”, so to speak, of creation.

For a, “for instance”, God did not decide after some things happened that God would become One of us but God knew before anything happened that God would become One of us.

This “Plan” is for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s creation.

I don’t know all of the details, I don’t even care to know all of the details, one could say that that is God’s Job, but I do care that God’s Plan is something that ALL can be thankful for and that God’s Plan truly can be called “GOOD NEWS”.

It is my opinion that what some seem to think the “Good News” is, is not even close to being Good News but is, in fact, quite horrific news.
 
I don’t think that follows. Can you explain what you mean by complicit? The first thing that came to my mind was, God cooperates with their destruction. But I thought of this counter-example that I’d like your (name removed by moderator)ut on: every year my church offers a free Thanksgiving dinner for free to all comers. We announce it, put notices and flyers out, and try to reach everybody we can in the city, inviting them all to come for free. But we have no reason to believe that everyone who hears will actually come. Call it reasonably confident foreknowledge. Now, if we know in advance that some people won’t come, are we complicit in their non-attendance? I don’t think so. We did what we could to invite them, but they didn’t show up for their own reasons. Do you think that’s a decent analogy for God’s situation?
It is my opinion that your “analogy” is good up to a point but since God is God and we ain’t, than God can come up with a “PLAN” that is all-encompassing and all-inclusive even if some of us think that God is incapable of coming up with this type of “PLAN”.

I happen to think/believe that God did just that, even before creation.
I don’t think so. If you know that someone did something bad, and you bring something good out of it anyway, I think that’s a holy action, and it’s what I would expect a good God to do. Do you think that’s a reasonable analogy for God’s situation?
If our God-given free will was only free up to a point than it would not be free will at all and we would be merely puppets on a string, maybe a longish string but nevertheless a string.

I do NOT think of God as a “good God” but as a Being of Love and that this Being of Love came up with a Plan, even before creation itself, that ultimately, ALL can be thankful for.
 
One of the things our professor said is that originally the church did not believe in free will, that God had everything thought out. The co-existence of free will was heresy. He said that the church modified this teaching, but he also said that he could not p(name removed by moderator)oint at what time in church history this change happened.

Bruce
Interesting. A professor teaching “historical” facts and he couldn’t find his source of information? Be gentle with him. Coax him to reveal when was the earliest proof of such change that he could point you to. Otherwise , he would be teaching, someone said something sometime ago. Nameless, dateless, evidence-less. Definitely this won’t be an exam question.
 
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