Free Will: Foreknowledge

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I think we could all agree that God had foreknowledge of all of creation, through all eternity, from the beginning.

Foreknowledge is before creation. It is an act of creation; since everything created comes from God’s foreknowledge.

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge. Your free will did not exist prior to God’s foreknowledge. Your free will does not dictate God’s foreknowledge. If you had not existed in God’s foreknowledge then you would not exist. If you exist from God (foreknowledge) then your free will is created.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

 

[bmullins]

I have always seen it from a different perspective. We have free-will. We have free-will because God gave us free-will. God did not make the decisions for us. God has foreknowledge because he’s outside of time. He is here, but he’s also there. Where as you and I have not made a decision, God is both here, and there. He knows the decision we are going to make, because as far as he is concerned… we’ve already made it… and we’ve yet to make it, and we are making it. He knows the outcome, because He is already in the future… but it’s still our choice…

So free will does exist.

 

[Pitcharan]

…There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

How do say that because free will is created by God there is NO free will.

Strange logic. Agreed that God knew all creation before hand. Now God is outside time, hence there is nothing like foreknowledge and there is just knowledge. We are inside time and just because God knew before hand all our actions and their outcomes, we cannot say that there is no free will. I’ll try my best to explain with a simple analogy:
You create a robot with a provision to always choose between two options. You also provide it with ability to desire and also intelligence to taste the outcome of its choices and freely choose the outcome desired by it.

You being far superior to the robot you made may know exactly what it will choose. But you don’t interfere with the choice because: (i) you granted it the right to choose and (ii) you gave it intelligence to make a choice with full knowledge of the consequences.

So how can one say that there is no free will just because you know all the outcomes

 

[belorg]

How do say that because free will is created by God there is NO free will.

Strange logic. Agreed that God knew all creation before hand. Now God is outside time, hence there is nothing like foreknowledge and there is just knowledge.

If theer is no foreknowledge but only knowledge, then our choices have already been made even before we were created. On such a scenario everything is predetermined, everything your are going to do tomorrow is alrdeay a fact. hence libertarian free will is impossible, you’ll have to find a way to reconcile free will and determinism.
That in itself is not a problem. Lots of people are compatibilists. I am a compatibilist too. the problem arises if we take in account responsibility and evitability.
A deteremined future is inevitable and therefore no human being can be held responsible for what happens in the future.

We are inside time and just because God knew before hand all our actions and their outcomes, we cannot say that there is no free will. I’ll try my best to explain with a simple analogy:
You create a robot with a provision to always choose between two options. You also provide it with ability to desire and also intelligence to taste the outcome of its choices and freely choose the outcome desired by it.
You being far superior to the robot you made may know exactly what it will choose.

Because in order for you to know all the outcomes, all the outcomes must be facts. And if all the outcomes are facts now, there is no real choice.

 

[tonyrey]

I think we could all agree that God had foreknowledge of all of creation, through all eternity, from the beginning.

Foreknowledge is before creation. It is an act of creation; since everything created comes from God’s foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is not an** act of creation **but a divine activity.

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge.

Our free will did not begin in God’s foreknowledge but in God’s free will! He was not compelled to create us, let alone with freewill. He chose to create us of His own free will.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

Then nothing exists!

 

[empther]

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

Then God caused the Holocaust, wars, murders, and all the evil men have done? :bigyikes:

Free will is not something that exists or is created. Rather it is a quallity or characteristic of hujman beings.

Does an apple have redness? No. Color does not have existence. It is the brain’s interpretation of light waves.

A lion has the characteristic of an animal chasing antelope. Granted, God created the lion to be able to do this, but he doesn’t actually make the lion do it.

Likewise, God created man with the ability to choose between good and evil, but he doens’t force man’s choice. .

As for this “foreknowledge” nonsense, that’s easily dismissed.

We all have foreknowledge that there will be a major earthquake in downtown Los Angelos someday, but this foreknowledge won’t cause the earthquake to happen.

Neither does God’s foreknowledge of man’s choice force the choice.

 

[exnihilo]

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge. Your free will did not exist prior to God’s foreknowledge. Your free will does not dictate God’s foreknowledge. If you had not existed in God’s foreknowledge then you would not exist. If you exist from God (foreknowledge) then your free will is created.

I think this might be the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. The event of creation following God’s foreknowledge does not mean that foreknowledge is what created us. Foreknowledge is just one of the attributes of God. Free Will is an attribute of God which He endowed man with. It might seem that God’s Free Will is not the same as man’s because God has other powers, such as foreknowledge and omnipotence. But the essence of Free Will is the same. Man simply does not have unlimited options over which to exercise his Free Will because he lacks omnipotence. God’s Free Will led to the creation of man and that creation included giving us the property of Free Will.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

Assuming that is true no one acts as if it is. Atheists talk about the ‘God Delusion’ but if there is no Free Will than we suffer from something far worse, the ‘Free Will Delusion’. We experience choice. To say that is an illusion is to undermine the credibility of the mind in anything.

 

[Pitcharan]

If there is no foreknowledge but only knowledge, then our choices have already been made even before we were created. On such a scenario everything is predetermined, everything you are going to do tomorrow is already a fact. Hence libertarian free will is impossible; you’ll have to find a way to reconcile free will and determinism.
That in itself is not a problem. Lots of people are compatibilists. I am a compatibilist too. the problem arises if we take in account responsibility and evitability.
A determined future is inevitable and therefore no human being can be held responsible for what happens in the future.

Since God is outside time, for Him there no past, present, future. There is nothing like probabilistic or deterministic. There is nothing called outcome. Time dimension does not exist.

You can only know this if it is predetermined what the robot will choose. if it is not, it is impossible to know exactly what it will choose. The very fact that you are able to predict with certainty what he is going to do means that what he is going to do is determined.

If he truly has the right to choose, then yopu cannot possibly know what he is going to choose.

Because in order for you to know all the outcomes, all the outcomes must be facts. And if all the outcomes are facts now, there is no real choice.

Knowledge apart from predetermination is incomprehensible to us who are trapped in time. There is nothing like prediction but complete knowledge of everything.

 

[Godfollower]

I think we could all agree that God had foreknowledge of all of creation, through all eternity, from the beginning.

Foreknowledge is before creation. It is an act of creation; since everything created comes from God’s foreknowledge.

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge. Your free will did not exist prior to God’s foreknowledge. Your free will does not dictate God’s foreknowledge. If you had not existed in God’s foreknowledge then you would not exist. If you exist from God (foreknowledge) then your free will is created.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

If I give a five-year-old a true choice (that is, I really will let him have whatever he says) between eating spinach and eating candy, I know in advance what he will choose. That doesn’t mean that I agree with the choice, and it doesn’t mean that he really didn’t have a choice. It just means that I knew, in advance, what his choice would be.

Similarly, I can tell you right now what President Obama or Speaker Boehner will do if a bill comes up that eliminates taxes on the poor and pays for it by doubling taxes on the rich. That doesn’t mean I approve of either man’s decision, and it doesn’t mean they lack free will.

Free will exists; that has been demostrated empirically over the centuries. Just because God knows what decisions we will make doesn’t mean that we didn’t make them. We’re responsible for our choices, however predictable they are.

 

[Langdell]

I have always seen it from a different perspective. We have free-will. We have free-will because God gave us free-will. God did not make the decisions for us. God has foreknowledge because he’s outside of time. He is here, but he’s also there. Where as you and I have not made a decision, God is both here, and there. He knows the decision we are going to make, because as far as he is concerned… we’ve already made it… and we’ve yet to make it, and we are making it. He knows the outcome, because He is already in the future… but it’s still our choice…

So free will does exist.

This is my view as well.

 

[belorg]

Since God is outside time, for Him there no past, present, future. There is nothing like probabilistic or deterministic. There is nothing called outcome. Time dimension does not exist.

Yes, there is nothing called outcome. Eeverything exists in an eternal now.

Knowledge apart from predetermination is incomprehensible to us who are trapped in time. There is nothing like prediction but complete knowledge of everything.

So I take it you actually agree with me.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

I think we could all agree that God had foreknowledge of all of creation, through all eternity, from the beginning.

Foreknowledge is before creation. It is an act of creation; since everything created comes from God’s foreknowledge.

Your free will began in God’s foreknowledge. Your free will did not exist prior to God’s foreknowledge. Your free will does not dictate God’s foreknowledge. If you had not existed in God’s foreknowledge then you would not exist. If you exist from God (foreknowledge) then your free will is created.

There is no free will since it exists from and is created by God.

If you see two approaching each other on a collision course you have foreknowledge of the accident. Did you cause the accident?

 

[JDaniel]

If theer is no foreknowledge but only knowledge, then our choices have already been made even before we were created. On such a scenario everything is predetermined, everything your are going to do tomorrow is alrdeay a fact. hence libertarian free will is impossible, you’ll have to find a way to reconcile free will and determinism.

No, an Infinite being is not, and does not have to be, a seer. That it is difficult to understand infinite being and time is as it should be. But, time, and thus, mobile being must exist, in some way, within an infinite being. Moreover, we cannot say that God has eyes like ours. At best, we can only say that He sees. And, when He sees He sees all. Our choices are merely known to God. They are not decided by God. That is a huge difference.

That in itself is not a problem. Lots of people are compatibilists. I am a compatibilist too. the problem arises if we take in account responsibility and evitability.
A deteremined future is inevitable and therefore no human being can be held responsible for what happens in the future.

Again: known does not mean determined.

If he truly has the right to choose, then yopu cannot possibly know what he is going to choose.

And God doesn’t. It’s just that He is so large and we are so small. God is not only not within Time but also, He is not a “mobile being.” In order for time to exist, mobile being must exist - along with space in which to move and within which is space for place.

Because in order for you to know all the outcomes, all the outcomes must be facts. And if all the outcomes are facts now, there is no real choice.

Can you put that into a syllogism that makes sense?

God bless,
jd

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I have always seen it from a different perspective. We have free-will. We have free-will because God gave us free-will. God did not make the decisions for us. God has foreknowledge because he’s outside of time. He is here, but he’s also there. Where as you and I have not made a decision, God is both here, and there. He knows the decision we are going to make, because as far as he is concerned… we’ve already made it… and we’ve yet to make it, and we are making it. He knows the outcome, because He is already in the future… but it’s still our choice…

So free will does exist.

However, he has to bring that free will into existence. He creates from that foreknowledge. Our free will must originate in God’s thought, considering that foreknowledge is a thought. That thought is the beginning of our free will. It is the beginning of our existence. Our entire being is in the origin of God.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

How do say that because free will is created by God there is NO free will.

Strange logic. Agreed that God knew all creation before hand. Now God is outside time, hence there is nothing like foreknowledge and there is just knowledge. We are inside time and just because God knew before hand all our actions and their outcomes, we cannot say that there is no free will. I’ll try my best to explain with a simple analogy:
You create a robot with a provision to always choose between two options. You also provide it with ability to desire and also intelligence to taste the outcome of its choices and freely choose the outcome desired by it.

You being far superior to the robot you made may know exactly what it will choose. But you don’t interfere with the choice because: (i) you granted it the right to choose and (ii) you gave it intelligence to make a choice with full knowledge of the consequences.

So how can one say that there is no free will just because you know all the outcomes

Why do you separate God’s foreknowledge from his creation? Is his foreknowledge apart from him. Did his foreknowledge create itself or did God create it? What exactly is God’s plan if his foreknowledge of his own creation has no part of him? How can foreknowledge manifest itself in God’s mind without his consent? Is not his consent an act of creation? Had he not consented to it we would not be.

Do you agree that God created every human being? Then how could he create every human being if man has free will? If a man and woman has free will then doesn’t that mean they create human beings regardless of God’s will? Or do they need God’s consent to create a human being? Is not his consent an act of creation? If he did not permit we would not be so.

There is plenty of examples in the bible where God shows that he works on the will of man. He hardened Pharaoh’s heart before the jews were set free. He sent an evil spirit to affect King Saul’s judgment towards David. etc…

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

If theer is no foreknowledge but only knowledge, then our choices have already been made even before we were created. On such a scenario everything is predetermined, everything your are going to do tomorrow is alrdeay a fact. hence libertarian free will is impossible, you’ll have to find a way to reconcile free will and determinism.

Foreknowledge is knowledge. It is the God’s thought of creation. Our choices are already determined because their creation began in God’s thought. However, it doesn’t diminish will because God is infinite.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Foreknowledge is not an** act of creation **but a divine activity.

Our free will did not begin in God’s foreknowledge but in God’s free will! He was not compelled to create us, let alone with freewill. He chose to create us of His own free will.
!

Would you say that a thought is a divine activity? Foreknowledge is thought and thought is will and will is the force behind creation. The thought of foreknowledge is an action within God prior to his action of creation.

It was God’s free will that consented to his foreknowledge. Had his will not consented to the foreknowledge of his creation he would not have created it.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Then God caused the Holocaust, wars, murders, and all the evil men have done? :bigyikes:

Didn’t God lead the Jews into captivity in Egypt? Didn’t God scatter Israel and lead the jews into captivity in Babylon? Have you ever read the old testament? Or just forget those parts out of convenience? The list goes on and on. Plagues, famine war…etc…all the will of God.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I think this might be the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. The event of creation following God’s foreknowledge does not mean that foreknowledge is what created us. Foreknowledge is just one of the attributes of God. Free Will is an attribute of God which He endowed man with. It might seem that God’s Free Will is not the same as man’s because God has other powers, such as foreknowledge and omnipotence. But the essence of Free Will is the same. Man simply does not have unlimited options over which to exercise his Free Will because he lacks omnipotence. God’s Free Will led to the creation of man and that creation included giving us the property of Free Will.

Assuming that is true no one acts as if it is. Atheists talk about the ‘God Delusion’ but if there is no Free Will than we suffer from something far worse, the ‘Free Will Delusion’. We experience choice. To say that is an illusion is to undermine the credibility of the mind in anything.

What appears to be free will is God’s consent. God must have consented to his own foreknowledge. He could have dismissed it and chose a different foreknowledge. But he chose this foreknowledge and created. His consent is his control over free will.

Free will delusion? Not my will be done. But your will be done, Father.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Since God is outside time, for Him there no past, present, future. There is nothing like probabilistic or deterministic. There is nothing called outcome. Time dimension does not exist.

Knowledge apart from predetermination is incomprehensible to us who are trapped in time. There is nothing like prediction but complete knowledge of everything.

God is Omnipresent. So he is in space and time. Past present and future he exists. Omnipresent means everywhere. So there is no way he can be outside of time and not exist within time. If he did not exist within time he would not be omnipresent.