Free will? I dont think so

[whatistrue]

Knowing the future is possible, but only in a deterministic universe

And this is the issue. God does not “know the future”. There is no future or past for God. That is what I mean about not shoehorning God into our temporal framework.

And my understanding is that your option 1 is how it works; we decide and act, God knows what we decide and do. The only thing is that God doesn’t have to “wait for us”, He knows it now (in the sense that all of our times are “now” for Him).

 

[Abrosz]

And this is the issue. God does not “know the future”. There is no future or past for God. That is what I mean about not shoehorning God into our temporal framework.

But we are NOT. Your error is that you assert that existence is contingent upon the observer. The same event cannot be “happened” for one and “will happen” for the other observer. Even if God is outside of time, he still have to wait until an event happens.

And my understanding is that your option 1 is how it works; we decide and act, God knows what we decide and do. The only thing is that God doesn’t have to “wait for us”, He knows it now (in the sense that all of our times are “now” for Him).

The causation does not need to have a temporal aspect to it. If we perform an act and that causes God to know it, then God’s knowledge is contingent, and since God is supposed to be sovereign - and “simple” - therefore God is contingent.

 

[whatistrue]

Even if God is outside of time, he still have to wait until an event happens.

That is self-contradictory. Since God is outside of time (as in not tied to a temporal framework) there is no “waiting” involved since there is no duration.

If we perform an act and that causes God to know it,

The act does not cause the knowing. Neither does the knowing cause the act.

 

[Abrosz]

That is self-contradictory. Since God is outside of time (as in not tied to a temporal framework) there is no “waiting” involved since there is no duration.

You confuse temporal and causative relationships.

The act does not cause the knowing. Neither does the knowing cause the act.

So, does some third party cause them both? Or do we have some incredible coincidence? There are only four options.

 

[whatistrue]

You confuse temporal and causative relationships.

I don’t think so. The word waiting implies a temporal framework, which does not apply to God.

So, does some third party cause them both? Or do we have some incredible coincidence?

No and No. God knows all that can be known, and our actions and decisions are knowable things.

 

[Hume]

1 Samuel 19:9
Then an evil spirit from the Lord came
upon Saul as he was sitting in his house
with spear in hand while David was playing
the harp nearby.

Saul’s apparent free will likely remained intact, meaning he thought he was making the choice.

What I’m wondering is that if 1. God is sovereign 2. God knew all outcomes before creating the universe and 3. God created the universe then could Saul have possibly chosen differently?

No way.

 

[Abrosz]

I don’t think so. The word waiting implies a temporal framework, which does not apply to God.

That would be a linguistic question, already answered.

No and No. God knows all that can be known, and our actions and decisions are knowable things.

How? And our actions and decisions are know knowable until they happen. I already enumerated all four possibilities. There are no other ones.

 

[Latin]

There are only four options.

No Abrosz, there is only one option, this one option as follows:

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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As we see above, God is the play writer, the director and the actor and He acts through us and every act is cast in stone from all eternity.
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God bless

 

[Hume]

Would it be fair to say that the damned made the choices that caused them to be damned but at the same time, their choices could not have been made differently?

 

[Abrosz]

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide dogma ).

Apart from the fact that dogmas are not arguments, you used the word “precedes”, which imply both temporal and causative sequences. So you assert the first possibility: God’s knowledge and actions are primary and they cause our decisions and actions - thereby we are simply puppies in the game, without “free will”.

As we see above, God is the play writer, the director and the actor and He acts through us and every act is cast in stone from all eternity.

And then you affirm. So we are the puppets, without free will.

 

[Latin]

And then you affirm. So we are the puppets, without free will.

We are not puppets at all, we are builders of God.
Please read my above answer and reasoning in my above post No. 539.

God bless

 

[Latin]

Would it be fair to say that the damned made the choices that caused them to be damned but at the same time, their choices could not have been made differently?

As God is the play writer, the director and the actor and He acts through and in us and every act is cast in stone from all eternity it is not a possibility.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the present and the end.

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.”
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God bless

 

[Hume]

As God is the play writer, the director and the actor and He acts through and in us and every act is cast in stone from all eternity it is not a possibility.
.

Ok. So if we have some responsibility and freedom then God is not completely sovereign, right? In the play between god and man, the sum of “what percent does each control events” cannot add up to more than 100% and you suggest that the responsibility of man may be greater than 0%.

 

[Veritas6]

The Thomist understanding of free will is not rooted in the ability to do otherwise. It is rooted in the will’s nature as a rational appetite, which has a natural inclination towards the good. As long as the will is pursuing something that it recognizes as good, proposed by the agent’s intellect, then it retains its freedom.

Libertarianism, on the other hand, by rooting freedom in the ability to do otherwise, ultimately reduces freedom to a reason-independent voluntarism. Willing thus becomes arbitrary on this view.

My favorite definition of free will is the “ability to choose according to wisdom and to love what is truly Good” (God). This ability comes to better and better expression as we are habituated in that Good. (Fr. Gregory Pine).

 

[Hume]

The Thomist understanding of free will is not rooted in the ability to do otherwise.

A free will where you could not have made any other choice is largely what I think we have.

However, it should be noted that this conflicts with the general understanding of free will where the agent could have possibly - as a matter of actualized reality - made another choice.

At any rate, I’m glad we agree here.

As such, the damned were so from birth. Same with the saved. The decisions that either damned or saved them were already set in stone - just waiting to be realized.

 

[Veritas6]

As such, the damned were so from birth. Same with the saved. The decisions that either damned or saved them were already set in stone - just waiting to be realized.

St. Thomas would not agree with this. God has every right to predestine anyone He wants to heaven, but He never predestines anyone to hell.

Now, God doesn’t necessarily predestine me to heaven. He is not irresistibly drawn to any one of us. His predestining (advanced planning) of anyone is a contingent, free decision on His part. Therefore, any decisions I make remain free and contingent.

In this instance I am necessarily drawn to the Universal Good, but I am contingently drawn to finite goods that contain both good and evil (imperfect). I choose on what is perceived to be good, useful, and profitable; which will ultimately take me to heaven. But these finite goods aren’t perfect, therefore I can be led astray with an imperfect knowledge of what I perceive to be good for me.

If I am not principally drawn to the Universal Good (God) first, then I am unable to will anything. This is why libertarianism doesn’t make sense on this view.

Here’s an example: necessarily, if a man’s wife marries him, she loves him. She did marry him, but it does not follow that she necessarily loves him. Her love is contingent because her marrying her husband is contingent.

 

[whatistrue]

It wouldn’t change your knowledge one bit

But it would change my employability.

 

[whatistrue]

We are not puppets at all, we are builders of God.

All of your explanations point to us being puppets, no matter how many times you deny it. You are arguing against free will and contrary to Church teaching. Please stop.

 

[Latin]

So if we have some responsibility and freedom then God is not completely sovereign, right?

I believe the correct answer is: Right.

St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.

In the play between god and man, the sum of “what percent does each control events” cannot add up to more than 100% and you suggest that the responsibility of man may be greater than 0%.

THE BEST ANSWER I CAN GIVE AS FOLLOWS

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will."
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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MERIT
Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
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Divine reward for the practice of virtue.
"The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE, which is unmerited, PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done."
(Council of Orange 529 AD, Denzinger 388).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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It is clear, we are 100 % dependent on God for everything, for this reason I cannot suggest that the responsibility of man may be greater than 0%, without God we can do nothing.
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God Bless

 

[Hume]

St. Thomas would not agree with this. God has every right to predestine anyone He wants to heaven, but He never predestines anyone to hell.

Ok, so then those that are in the theoretical hell must be there because they successfully acted in defiance of god again his wishes.

Thus god is not fully sovereign.