Free will? I dont think so

[chercheur]

In the film the reason the choices aren’t free is that they were literally scripted beforehand, not that the viewer is aware of what will occur.

A free choice implies that you could have done something other than what you did. And if we assume a rational agent that has the ability to self-determination separate from the natural course of cause and effect, you could have. I really don’t see how we have concluded that the future isn’t “dependent on your choice so that it could fork one way or the other”. Just that it eventually will fork one of those ways, and God knows which one.

 

[puer.dei]

If I am to accept that God knows what decision I will make I dont have it either.

That’s incorrect. Knowing you will do something is not the same as forcing you to do it. You’re confusing two completely different things.

 

[Freddy]

phil3:

If I am to accept that God knows what decision I will make I dont have it either.

That’s incorrect. Knowing you will do something is not the same as forcing you to do it. You’re confusing two completely different things.

Enough with the ‘forcing’ already. No-one is saying that. It’s being suggested that if our life is already ‘in the can’ then it’s not that we’re forced to make decisions. It’s that there are no options. We feel as if there are but effectively there are not.

 

[puer.dei]

it’s not that we’re forced to make decisions. It’s that there are no options.

Of course there are. Any way you phrase it, you’re confusing knowledge with some kind of control.

 

[Wesrock]

If God already knows what will happen to me, there is no free will. My soul is already going to go to heaven or to hell. I have already made those decisions before I made them. It is done and finished. It is like a book that has already been written. I am have just started to read it, but the ending isnt going to change.

No. You didn’t make your decisions before you made them. God knows what you will do because it’s what you choose to do. God is not an observer in time. He exists timelessly knowing all at once. He does not have a before and after. He knows the order you do things, but he knows it all at once. Not before you do something. Bit eternally. And the choice ultimately comes from you and your God-given agency, not from something external to you.

 

[Kei]

Enough with the ‘forcing’ already. No-one is saying that. It’s being suggested that if our life is already ‘in the can’ then it’s not that we’re forced to make decisions. It’s that there are no options. We feel as if there are but effectively there are not.

Say I film you in your daily life, like a nature documentary but with you as the subject. The film I just made will not change. You always do the same thing whenever I replay the tape.

Did you not have free will when I filmed you, because of this fact?

Yes, God would know the future. But just as the past is known to us as an interplay of free choices, so also to someone from the future for the present. It’s already happened to someone from the future: the past (in this case the present) is a plain fact. We are playing out present time, but at least in the sense of omniscience, it’s already happened. It’s like it’s in the past. That is not to say we didn’t live it: we did. Or, well, we are living it. But time is a construct of the Universe’s laws: to us within the Universe, it is very real. To One who transcends the Universe, it isn’t quite so.

At least, that’s how I’d understand it. Time can be very confusing, and we’re considering it as it relates to God(!!!), so in many ways it may be difficult to understand, perhaps even above us in some ways. But we can try as best our abilities actually and truly allow.

 

[phil3]

poster keep using terms like “control” or “forced”, I never said that at all.

 

[phil3]

Does god know the moment of my souls creation it that soul will go to heaven or to hell?

 

[chercheur]

Does god know the moment of my souls creation it that soul will go to heaven or to hell?

This raises an interesting point, but it’s not a question of free will per se, with respect each of the decisions you make. It only relates to your choice in the sense that your being created by God is what allows you to have any capacity to make your choices.

 

[Gorgias]

They didn’t. They were constrained by the script.

And that’s why it’s only an analogy.

A free choice implies that you can do something other than that which you did.

That’s the error of those who deny free will and assert determinism. You actually could have done otherwise; you simply chose what you chose. You just chose one course of action among many.

You’re conflating an event inside of the temporal framework with a reality outside of it. If you could show that there’s a constraint within the temporal framework that influences your decision, then we’d have something to talk about. If not – and you’ve shown none such thing – then there’s nothing that constrains your within-the-temporal-framework choice. Which means… no thwarting of a free-will choice within the framework in which we make it.

 

[Kei]

I am no expert, and I am not God Almighty.

But I don’t see why not.

I don’t see why He wouldn’t know all the times He would offer you Grace, and see all the times you’d accept it, and all the times you’d reject it. All the times you’d offend Him and go on the wrong path. All the times you’d break His Heart. And all the times you’d repent, turning back to Him. And, despite all the offenses given Him, He would make you still, out of love.

 

[tafan2]

You are stating it wrong when you say God knows all of your actions from the moment you were created. There are no moments in eternity. God knows all that has happened and will happen.

As to how this affects your free will, here is a better way of looking at it. For now, take Gid out of the equation, just consider ourselves in this material universe which includes time. Yesterday, I decided to watch the Bishop’s mass being livestreamed on TV. That decision is now “set in stone”, to use your phrase. I cannot change it. Yet I made the decision freely. The fact that I cannot change it now does not mean it wasn’t a free decision.

Now, consider God. He is eternal, everything we experience, past and future, is present to Him always (except the word always should be committed because it implies time). Now just because my decision yesterday is present to Him, does not mean I did not make the decision. Likewise, just because next Sunday is present to Him, does not mean I won’t decide to watch mass on TV or not. But in our universe, that is not set in stone. To God he is seeing what I choose next week, just as He is seeing what I did yesterday. He did not see it (in the past tense) He sees it. He will but see what I choose tomorrow, He sees it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Enough with the ‘forcing’ already. No-one is saying that. It’s being suggested that if our life is already ‘in the can’ then it’s not that we’re forced to make decisions. It’s that there are no options. We feel as if there are but effectively there are not.

Say I film you in your daily life, like a nature documentary but with you as the subject. The film I just made will not change. You always do the same thing whenever I replay the tape.

That’s not the situation. The film is already made before you make the decision. It’s not being filmed as it happens. It was in the can even before you were born. You cannot make decision A because you have effectively already made decision B. You just don’t know it.

 

[SPBlitz]

Let’s put it another way. Putting out the chicken has to happen . It’s in your future. It’s fixed. I’m able to see the future and I see it happening. Can you change your mind and give the dog beef?

I’ll give the answer for you to speed up the discussion: It’s an emphatic ‘NO’.

So the question then becomes: Do you have free will to change your mind if you cannot change your mind?

Not quite. Gods knowledge of the future event (if it even makes sense to talk about Gods future) is determined by your choice. If, in the moment, you choose chicken, then Gods knowledge is that you choose chicken. If instead you choose beef, his knowledge from the beginning of time was that you choose beef. If you hem and haw over choosing chicken or beef and eventually choose tuna, Gods knowledge is that you hem and haw and eventually decide on tuna. Either way, it’s still your choice. In a sense, the future act determines the past knowledge (not that I think it makes much sense to apply past and future to God - he lives in an eternal present. But that’s a different discussion.)

 

[Kei]

You cannot make decision A because you have effectively already made decision B. You just don’t know it.

That’s close to what I am saying. Yes, to the person in the future, we have already made decision B. However, the decision was made.
However, the matter of perspective is important. We didn’t make it yet, to us who live in the time-space continuum.

I am getting a headache, and will leave it at that for now!

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

They didn’t. They were constrained by the script.

And that’s why it’s only an analogy.

A free choice implies that you can do something other than that which you did.

That’s the error of those who deny free will and assert determinism. You actually could have done otherwise; you simply chose what you chose. You just chose one course of action among many.

No. If God can see the choice that you have made before you make it then that’s the decision you will make. God doesn’t wait to see what happens. There’s only one path you can take.

If that was not the case then the future would be unknown to Him. He’d have to wait until you made the call before He knew what decision you made. That’s not the case. There is one path only. One option only. One choice only. You only think you have many.

 

[Freddy]

You are stating it wrong when you say God knows all of your actions from the moment you were created. There are no moments in eternity. God knows all that has happened and will happen.

As to how this affects your free will, here is a better way of looking at it. For now, take Gid out of the equation, just consider ourselves in this material universe which includes time. Yesterday, I decided to watch the Bishop’s mass being livestreamed on TV. That decision is now “set in stone”, to use your phrase. I cannot change it. Yet I made the decision freely. The fact that I cannot change it now does not mean it wasn’t a free decision.

Now, consider God. He is eternal, everything we experience, past and future, is present to Him always (except the word always should be committed because it implies time). Now just because my decision yesterday is present to Him, does not mean I did not make the decision. Likewise, just because next Sunday is present to Him, does not mean I won’t decide to watch mass on TV or not. But in our universe, that is not set in stone. To God he is seeing what I choose next week, just as He is seeing what I did yesterday. He did not see it (in the past tense) He sees it. He will but see what I choose tomorrow, He sees it.

Nobody is denying you made a decision. And nobody is saying you were forced to make it. You did make that decision. But there was only one choice you could make - the one that God knows you would make. He saw that decsion being made before you were born.

If you only have one option - and you did only have the one option because you couldn’t take any other, then that is not compatible with free will.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Let’s put it another way. Putting out the chicken has to happen . It’s in your future. It’s fixed. I’m able to see the future and I see it happening. Can you change your mind and give the dog beef?

I’ll give the answer for you to speed up the discussion: It’s an emphatic ‘NO’.

So the question then becomes: Do you have free will to change your mind if you cannot change your mind?

Not quite. Gods knowledge of the future event (if it even makes sense to talk about Gods future) is determined by your choice. If, in the moment, you choose chicken, then Gods knowledge is that you choose chicken. If instead you choose beef, his knowledge from the beginning of time was that you choose beef. If you hem and haw over choosing chicken or beef and eventually choose tuna, Gods knowledge is that you hem and haw and eventually decide on tuna. Either way, it’s still your choice. In a sense, the future act determines the past knowledge (not that I think it makes much sense to apply past and future to God - he lives in an eternal present. But that’s a different discussion.)

Again, I am NOT saying you didn’t make a choice. I am saying that there was only one path you could take. There must have been because God knew what it was before you took it.

 

[SPBlitz]

Again, I am NOT saying you didn’t make a choice. I am saying that there was only one path you could take. There must have been because God knew what it was before you took it.

You keep trying to apply time to God, as if God, at the Big Bang, knows you’ll choose chicken and then has to sit around until you make the choice. But that isn’t what I’m saying. To God, your future decision is Present to him. He doesn’t ‘know’ what decision you will make; he sees you making the decision in His present. In the moment you are free to take any choice you wish. There is no matter of God’s ‘foreknowledge’. There is no foreknowledge to him. Only knowledge of his unbounded present.

 

[chercheur]

If God can see the choice that you have made before you make it then that’s the decision you will make.

Yes. (Although technically not “before”, I think.)

God doesn’t wait to see what happens.

Yes, because God is in eternity, not in time.

There’s only one path you can take.

There is only one path you did take. While God knows which path you will take, I think that knowledge is still in some sense dependent on your making that choice. Just because there will only be one outcome in reality doesn’t mean you didn’t have the ability to make a different choice.