Free will? I dont think so

[Gorgias]

He already knows what you are going to pick tomorrow .

Right. So, he would tell you “5”. The fact that @whatistrue is thinking today that he’s gonna pick “3” is immaterial. He actually picks “5”. God wouldn’t be ‘fooled’ in such a way that He would be reading his mind today and therefore respond, “3”. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that @whatistrue isn’t really pondering and doesn’t really choose “5” on his own accord. It doesn’t happen because God knows it; rather, God knows it because it will have happened.

I mean, God is omniscient, so He obviously knows and He says you’ll pick number three.

Why would he answer “3”? It’s not what happens, so why would He tell you that it does? I’m not sure how you’re reaching this conclusion, but it’s erroneous. At best, your thought experiment might go like this:
God: “5”
Freddy: “no, no, no! You’re wrong! He intends to pick ‘3’!!!”
God: "Whatever, man. Wait and see… "

 

[MarkRome]

Above MarkRome: you described a Libertarian free will

No, I am defending man’s free will, as Aquinas and Augustine did. Also, this is affirmed at Trent, "If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. " (D. 814)

Are you defending irresistible grace?

 

[Freddy]

Right. So, he would tell you “5”. The fact that @whatistrue is thinking today that he’s gonna pick “3” is immaterial. He actually picks “5”. God wouldn’t be ‘fooled’ in such a way that He would be reading his mind today and therefore respond, “3”. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that @whatistrue isn’t really pondering and doesn’t really choose “5” on his own accord. It doesn’t happen because God knows it; rather, God knows it because it will have happened.

If God knows it, then it cannot be anything else. Agreed? And please humour me with a simple yes or no.

 

[Gorgias]

If God knows it, then it cannot be anything else. Agreed? And please humour me with a simple yes or no.

I’m sorry, Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that.

It will become what He foreknows. From our perspective, it can be anything we choose up until we choose it. Again, it doesn’t become true because He knows it; it becomes true because we choose it.

So, the answer to your question is “it cannot be anything else other than what we freely choose.”

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If God knows it, then it cannot be anything else. Agreed? And please humour me with a simple yes or no.

I’m sorry, Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that.

That I like.

 

[EndTimes]

I am a firm believer in Free Will and I have always been able to agree with it and God being all-knowing.

I have always believed that God knew every decision you might make in your life. That until you made that decision it was not cast in stone.

But I have learned that God knows what decision you will make before you make it. All this was known the moment my soul was created. There might be the illusion of free will, but it just isnt so. My path has already known by God. Nothing I do will change the outcome. Because whatever I do is what I am supposed to do already.

God sees all Eternity - including decisions freely made by you…

You do not will what you’re supposed to will -

You will what you shall will.

 

[Gorgias]

@Freddy,

One last thought (and I know it won’t resound with you, but at least ponder it for the sake of argument):

We posit God as “all-good”, right? If God forced actions upon us, deterministically, and those actions were evil, then God would be willing evil and committing it by proxy through us. That would imply that He is evil. Paradox, and therefore, this argument is rejected.

(I would expect to see the response “yeah, but if He really is evil, then there’s no paradox, since an evil god does evil things.” Yet, a paradox remains, since the definition of “God” is now in conflict with who He is. (And yeah, the response to that is “change the definition then”. Yeah, yeah, yeah…))

 

[tafan2]

No, He did not see the decision before I was born. There is not “before” with God. He sees the decisions I made, and He sees the decisions I will make.
Its not a perfect analogy, but it is close: the fact that I know a decision you made yesterday, does not mean that you did not freely make that decision yesterday. Likewise God sees that decision you made yesterday, that does not mean you did not make it freely. And then with God, we know he sees the decisions you make in the future, but that does not mean you won’t have free will.

 

[Latin]

I am defending man’s free will, …
Are you defending irresistible grace?

Do you MarkRome defending Libertarian free will or Aided free will?

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
.
AIDED FREE WILL
We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

My answer of your question: I don’t defend irresistible grace.

God bless

 

[goout]

Gorgias:

Right. So, he would tell you “5”. The fact that @whatistrue is thinking today that he’s gonna pick “3” is immaterial. He actually picks “5”. God wouldn’t be ‘fooled’ in such a way that He would be reading his mind today and therefore respond, “3”. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that @whatistrue isn’t really pondering and doesn’t really choose “5” on his own accord. It doesn’t happen because God knows it; rather, God knows it because it will have happened.

If God knows it, then it cannot be anything else. Agreed? And please humour me with a simple yes or no.

You are right. God knows all things and it can’t be otherwise.
God knows all things because God is love, and love creates. What one creates one knows.
And, love only exists in freedom. No freedom no love.

Loving parents don’t lock children in their rooms to prevent them from the inevitable suffering they will endure, even while the parent knows they will endure that suffering. Every parent knows their child will die some day, and yet the freedom of living and loving is worth procreating that life.

 

[whatistrue]

We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

That entire sentence is one long self-contradiction. If it is caused by another, it cannot be free.

 

[MarkRome]

Do you MarkRome defending Libertarian free will or Aided free will?

Neither, based on your definition of aided free will with the word “causes”.

We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

Even Paul understood this not to be the case in Romans 7:15, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.”

 

[Gorgias]

Latin:

We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

That entire sentence is one long self-contradiction. If it is caused by another, it cannot be free.

Not ‘caused’, per se, but ‘willed’. It’s God’s will that we should exercise our own free will, and He causes us to have free will.

 

[whatistrue]

That’s not what the sentence said.

 

[phil3]

According to those here, my out come is determined and God knows it. I dont.

 

[whatistrue]

According to those here, my out come is determined and God knows it. I dont.

Not exactly. Your outcome is known, which is not the same as determined.

 

[lelinator]

AIDED FREE WILL
We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do.

I can’t help but get the feeling that this means that God is a bit mentally unhinged. He wills man to sin, therefore condemning them to eternal suffering, only to save them in a supreme act of divine mercy, but only if they’ll kneel before Him in unquestioning admiration and submission.

Not really the type of God that I can get all that gung ho about.

Now this may seem a bit harsh, but it’s the impression that one could get from the idea of “Aided Free Will”

 

[Gorgias]

That’s not what the sentence said.

Sure it is! You’re just interpreting it differently than the Church does.

God is omnipotent. We literally pray “thy will be done”!

So, if His will is that we have free will and utilize it, then He causes us to have free will, and He wills that we utilize it. Period, full stop.

You’re taking this to mean that God forces us to take particular actions. The Church does not teach that this is so.

I can’t help but get the feeling that this means that God is a bit mentally unhinged. He wills man to sin, therefore condemning them to eternal suffering, only to save them in a supreme act of divine mercy, but only if they’ll kneel before Him in unquestioning admiration and submission.

No, that’s not what the Church is teaching. In fact, it runs explicitly counter to the Church’s doctrine. God doesn’t “will man to sin,” along with all the side effects it brings. Rather, God wills that humans choose freely, but He allows us to choose poorly. The effects of those choices are what you mention, but the individual choices aren’t what God wills – rather, the ability to choose freely is what God wills.

That’s exactly the type of God that we can get gung ho about! Our freedom matters so much to Him that he allows us to exercise it always.

 

[whatistrue]

So, if His will is that we have free will and utilize it, then He causes us to have free will, and He wills that we utilize it. Period, full stop.

But @Latin wrote:

We FREELY will what God wills us to will, and we FREELY do what God wills and causes us to do

Which is not the same thing. His sentence clearly states that we do what He wants, period. Not that He wants us to have free will so we do. L just adds the FREELY so it sounds like actual free will. The caption even says it - AIDED FREE WILL. True free will is free, not aided, nor are our actions caused.

 

[Gorgias]

Which is not the same thing.

It’s exactly the same thing, when properly understood.

His sentence clearly states that we do what He wants, period.

What’s the thing that He wants us to do, then? I’m telling ya… it’s “to have free will and to utilize it”. You’re the one who’s twisting it to mean something that it doesn’t intend.

The perspective that @Latin is arguing is that of “the sovereignty of God.” However, it does not mean that God directs our every action against our free will, as you’re taking it to mean.