Free will in Heaven?

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nkelly said:
As St. Paul said, there is a constant struggle between the flesh and the spirit and the body is conducive to sin. When we no longer have a fleshy body, the spirit should start to rule.
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This really doesn’t answer the question however, as to wether or not there will be free will in heaven.

Are you saying our free will is simply a product of the flesh?

Or that our spirit’s will is more in alignment with God than our Flesh? If so why on earth create us with “flesh” in the first place, if it is only going to take us further from God, since God wants us close?

Free will cannot be tied to flesh.

That just doesn’t make sense, it sounds like something that people simply “say”, as an explanation but it doesn’t really mean anything.

I think the desire to lack free will in heaven, is really a desire to no longer have to “fight” or “struggle” to be a good person because it seems so hard sometimes.
 
Dameedna said:
This really doesn’t answer the question however, as to wether or not there will be free will in heaven.

Are you saying our free will is simply a product of the flesh?

Or that our spirit’s will is more in alignment with God than our Flesh? If so why on earth create us with “flesh” in the first place, if it is only going to take us further from God, since God wants us close?

Free will cannot be tied to flesh.

That just doesn’t make sense, it sounds like something that people simply “say”, as an explanation but it doesn’t really mean anything.

I think the desire to lack free will in heaven, is really a desire to no longer have to “fight” or “struggle” to be a good person because it seems so hard sometimes.
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No I don’t think the body has anything to do with free will but it brings concupiscence. See Romans 7:
22 For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. 24 Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.
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Our Lord also said that the spirit is will but the flesh is weak. So in Heaven we will be free of the sins of the flesh and be totally oriented towards the way of the spirit.
 
nkelly said:
No I don’t think the body has anything to do with free will but it brings concupiscence. See Romans 7:
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Okay…but…
Our Lord also said that the spirit is will but the flesh is weak. So in Heaven we will be free of the sins of the flesh and be totally oriented towards the way of the spirit.
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Our flesh has nothing to do with our free will, but…you say our “will” is weakened by flesh.

So Flesh has nothing to do with Free will, even though our Flesh, weakens the will.

I see a contradiction here.
 
Even though the flesh does war against the spirit, the rebellion of Adam, and angels, against God had to do with with pride rather than fleshly desires. So it would seem that with or without the flesh, sin is possible. I think the question for us should be, why is the spirit unable to control the flesh to begin with and why will we not want to sin in heaven in any case?
 
Dameedna said:
Okay…but…

Our flesh has nothing to do with our free will, but…you say our “will” is weakened by flesh.

So Flesh has nothing to do with Free will, even though our Flesh, weakens the will.

I see a contradiction here.
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I’m saying that the spirit and flesh are in a tug of war, they fight against each other. The spirit pulls us up and the flesh drags us down. Agreed, this has nothing to do with free will. My point is that in heaven we won’t have physical flesh to drag us down.
 
nkelly said:
Greeting brothers and sisters in Christ, long time no post 🙂

I’ve being doing battle with a group of atheists and the subject of why does God allow evil came up and I spoke about free will and they said that God was irresponsible and so on and so on. I have 3 related questions please.
  1. Why were not created in Heaven from the beginning instead of this “Valley of Tears”?
  2. Do we have free will in Heaven and if so how what would prevent us from abusing this free will and rebelling against God? Or would a superabundance of grace prevent this?
  3. What’s to prevent us falling from Heaven like the fallen angels?
God bless,
Noel.
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In response to Q2, St Anslem of Canterbury discusses this at length. Basically, he talks about the purpose of the will as seeking and staying fixed on one desire. A good will is a will that does not deviate from its’ purpose. That is why the fallen angels cannot repent, their wills are so much more perfect than ours, once they fix on a purpose, they will see it through. The perfected will is the will that is truly free to choose the best end, i.e. God, and never be distracted from that end. Thus free will and eternal perseverence are in agreement.
 
nkelly said:
I’m saying that the spirit and flesh are in a tug of war, they fight against each other. The spirit pulls us up and the flesh drags us down. Agreed, this has nothing to do with free will. My point is that in heaven we won’t have physical flesh to drag us down.
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Your point is, that we will not have “flesh” to pull us down. And some-how this lack of “flesh” pulling us down is a good thing.

How is it a good thing if it does not actually affect our free will?

My flesh and my spirit are going to town, without my will being involved, and at some point I can say great. It’s all over, because…some-one won.

Can you please tell me what the “flesh” and the “spirit” have to do with who I am, with ME, and with my own choices?
 
nkelly said:
Greeting brothers and sisters in Christ, long time no post 🙂

I’ve being doing battle with a group of atheists and the subject of why does God allow evil came up and I spoke about free will and they said that God was irresponsible and so on and so on. I have 3 related questions please.
  1. Why were not created in Heaven from the beginning instead of this “Valley of Tears”?
  2. Do we have free will in Heaven and if so how what would prevent us from abusing this free will and rebelling against God? Or would a superabundance of grace prevent this?
  3. What’s to prevent us falling from Heaven like the fallen angels?
God bless,
Noel.
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Hi nkelly,
  1. We are in this “Valley of Tears” as a test of our love for God.
  2. Yes, we will have free will, but as others have said, our will is united to God’s will when we reach heaven.
  3. We will no longer be under the influence of original sin, so we will not “fall from Heaven.”
 
Dameedna said:
Your point is, that we will not have “flesh” to pull us down. And some-how this lack of “flesh” pulling us down is a good thing.

How is it a good thing if it does not actually affect our free will?

My flesh and my spirit are going to town, without my will being involved, and at some point I can say great. It’s all over, because…some-one won.

Can you please tell me what the “flesh” and the “spirit” have to do with who I am, with ME, and with my own choices?
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Eh, no thanks. From my point of view, it looks like you just want an argument.
 
DL82 said:
In response to Q2, St Anslem of Canterbury discusses this at length. Basically, he talks about the purpose of the will as seeking and staying fixed on one desire. A good will is a will that does not deviate from its’ purpose. That is why the fallen angels cannot repent, their wills are so much more perfect than ours, once they fix on a purpose, they will see it through. The perfected will is the will that is truly free to choose the best end, i.e. God, and never be distracted from that end. Thus free will and eternal perseverence are in agreement.
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Thanks DL. Would you happen to have the name of St. Anselm’s book or document?
 
My guess is if there is a Purgatory then this would be a place where we would esentially be purified from all the earthly desires and things that would make us desire sin and therefore, when we finally are ready for Heaven we will no longer desire sin. We still would have free will but there would no longer be any temptation to sin and there just would be no need for it.
 
nkelly said:
Greeting brothers and sisters in Christ, long time no post 🙂

I’ve being doing battle with a group of atheists and the subject of why does God allow evil came up and I spoke about free will and they said that God was irresponsible and so on and so on. I have 3 related questions please.
  1. Why were not created in Heaven from the beginning instead of this “Valley of Tears”?
  2. Do we have free will in Heaven and if so how what would prevent us from abusing this free will and rebelling against God? Or would a superabundance of grace prevent this?
  3. What’s to prevent us falling from Heaven like the fallen angels?
God bless,
Noel.
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In the afterlife, there is no turning back. We all have a free will, until we die, after which, we are set forever in our decision. It would therefore be impossible to “fall”, moreover, I don’t see how anyone could want to.😉

Why were we not created in Heaven?

Because we aren’t angels! 😃
 
I seem to have missed all the fun in this thread.
Firstly, a friend of mine, a Dominican has recently published the definitive book precisely on this matter which summarises the traditional strands of Christian thought including Anselm and Thomas:
“Will There Be Free Will in Heaven? (Hardcover)
by Fr Simon Francis Gaine OP”
available from Amazon!

There seem to be several misconceptions among some of the posters:
  1. Most importantly, we shall still be creatures of flesh and blood after the last judgement. Without bodily resurrection, we shall only be “partly alive”: disembodied souls. So, if a human sort of free will depends on having a body, this will still be true in heaven (after the 2nd coming). Ours will be glorified bodies no
    longer troubled by death and disease but they will remain human bodies.
  2. It is not only in choosing between right and wrong that we exercise our free will. God gave us this faculty so that we can choose between the different good options in life: shall I read a book, play basketball, phone my friends, go for a walk. These are all good choices which my free will can choose between.
    The choice of sin is not a proper act of free will but its perversion: we are choosing precisely what we know will cause us profound harm. It is a consequence of Original Sin and also of our personal sins that each of us seem to be unable to avoid making what we know are terrible choices.
    In heaven, the wounds of sin will be fully healed. We will once more be able to exercise our free will, to choose to lead a perfectly joyful life, deciding on options which make us and our friends and companions happy rather than miserable. This is what God intended the Garden of Eden to be.
Only in heaven, will we be truly free, free from the shackles of sin.
Remember John chapter 8:
“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” In heaven, we shall see the Truth face to face, and we shall than be Truly free.
 
This is going to sound outlandish but hang in there with me for a minute and tell me what you think. Most of us know of Medjugorge and the apparitions that have taken place(overmany years) and currently do even now. The church has ruled a “no decision” yet so we are free to continue investigating and visiting as pilgrims on our own. The 1st and 2nd secrets have been given to all the visionaries and “apparantly” they are now about to unfold. The 1st secret/warning/Illumination is said to happen on April 10, 2009 which happens to be Good Friday/Passover that year.This will be announced to the world from a priest chosen over 25 years ago by the visionary March 31st which is 10 days before the miracle) It is said that EVERY human being in the world (including children even in the womb) will find themselves alone with God and see the state their soul is in. Our FREE WILL will be 100% intact and all of us will either repent and be sorrowful over our sins or reject God and fall more into sin at that encounter.For the remainder of Good Friday into Holy Saturday the world will all remember this moment and mostly grieve over their sins and offenses until sundown on Easter vigil when (the 2nd secret will manifest)God will give the world the grace of consolation and peace and rejoicing for Easter Sunday. This will be a joy given to all who repent and convert. This is said to be the beginning of a new era in the Church and the world.Although this may sound crazy and impossible to some, most of us must admit their are many days when one can wonder"how can we go on like this"? Just when you think you’ve heard it all and it can’t get worse…it does. All throughout history God has intervened when mankind has gooten off the right path. When we go beyond helping ourselves then Gid steps in such as Noah, Sodam and Gomorah, and so forth. Maybe this is another time that God is stepping in and giving us the grace to go forward. There is much more involved but space limits me from elaborating further.
What do some of you think? Does this sound possible? I am open to your opinions.

Mary
 
Mary,

We can’t respond since forum rules state that we can’t discuss unapproved private revelations here.
 
Thanks Becky,
I guess I missed that on the rules sorry although I understand not being able to discuss apparitions that are disapproved or condemned but not being able to discuss an ongoing, underinvestigation apparition site currently visited by millions of Catholics seems a little severe to me.
There is something almost disturbing about that rule but especilly when ironically discussing “free will”.
Thanks again and God Bless.
 
maryann8650 said:
Thanks Becky,
I guess I missed that on the rules sorry although I understand not being able to discuss apparitions that are disapproved or condemned but not being able to discuss an ongoing, underinvestigation apparition site currently visited by millions of Catholics seems a little severe to me.
There is something almost disturbing about that rule but especilly when ironically discussing “free will”.
Thanks again and God Bless.
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There’s nothing nefarious about that rule; it’s just that threads on those topics generally lead to uncharitable bashing and flaming.

The Church is not hiding anything from us. If there is something we need to know, the Pope will shout it from the rooftops. We have much available to us in public revelation. True private revelation doesn’t reveal anything new; it just clarifies what we already have available to us through the Bible and through the Church.

You CAN discuss approved appartitions here. I recommend this website for finding which apparitions/revelations are approved by the Church:

Apparitions.org
 
Yes Becky,
and let me say that I have had the great blessing of having been to Fatima, Portugal and it truly is a gift from God to visit the place we know Our Lady appeared. I have not been to Medjugorje but,working for the church, I must say that I know many many good, Holy priests who have been there numerous times and will continue to travel there unless the church deems it otherwise and then they will be wholly obedient to the church and accept the outcome.

Thanks again,
Mary
 
ncgolf said:
How would we ever know what free will is if we could have never experienced it … both the good and bad consequences of a wrong choice. Can a person who grew up with wealth all around them ever really know what it is like to be poor? Why would we not have free will? What kind of god would God be if we could not freely choose to serve him. If no free will then he is a tryant, a dictator, a super Sadaam Hussein. This goes for heaven too … I imagine we see things so clearly and unambiguously that the correct action comes naturally. When we were learning mathematics 2 + 2 may have been difficult, but now … how many times if asked how much 2 +2 is does anyone really answer anything other than 4.
The angels were tested upon their creation … they had to freely submit to God or not. Some chose not to serve and feel but once the choice is made it is irrevocable for the angels. The angels upon their creation were not in heaven until their choice was made.
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but doesn’t it say that lucifer was thrown out of heaven. that means he had to have been there sometime
 
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