Free Will in the light of Scripture

[Reformed]

Would you like to explore the concept of apparent free will according to the Scriptures? I hope we can go beyond the emotional arguments used by Roman Catholics and Arminian Protestants such as God did not create robots, we are not puppets, or as a Catholic posted that without free will…we have divine rape. For a deeper study, please consider the articles on the subject.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=free+will

http://www.persianstudents.org/archives/robots.jpg

We are not robots!

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Sorry I don’t have my bible with me. But didn’t Moses say something like, “I set before you this day death and life. Choose life.” If God invites us to choose, doesn’t that imply he gives us the freedom to do so?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Sorry I don’t have my bible with me. But didn’t Moses say something like, “I set before you this day death and life. Choose life.” If God invites us to choose, doesn’t that imply he gives us the freedom to do so?

No. It doesn’t. I can command you to do a whole host of things that you don’t have the ability to do.

As St. Augustine prayed, “Lord, grant what thou commandest, and commandest what thou will.”

 

[tGette]

No. It doesn’t. I can command you to do a whole host of things that you don’t have the ability to do.

As St. Augustine prayed, “Lord, grant what thou commandest, and commandest what thou will.”

Right!
We have freedom, but our realm of choices is limited.

Interestingly, a Muslim described “free will/predestination” very nicely:
God knows everything similar to how if you were to throw your fist at a brick wall you know it is going to hurt before your fist hits. (For anyone who does not know…this action of throwing a fist is called punching! )

I’m excited because I have wanted to discuss this topic for quite sometime.

---

My question is:
Does predestination mean that got preordained everything from the beginning? Meaning that all good AND evil were in this divine plan?

By God’s Grace, my segue question will be coming according responses.

 

[Reformed]

Right!
We have freedom, but our realm of choices is limited.

Interestingly, a Muslim described “free will/predestination” very nicely:
God knows everything similar to how if you were to throw your fist at a brick wall you know it is going to hurt before your fist hits. (For anyone who does not know…this action of throwing a fist is called punching! )

I’m excited because I have wanted to discuss this topic for quite sometime.

---

My question is:
Does predestination mean that got preordained everything from the beginning? Meaning that all good AND evil were in this divine plan?

By God’s Grace, my segue question will be coming according responses.

That’s a great question. I think when predestination or predestined is used in the Bible, it is used in the context of the eternal destination of individuals (Ephesians 1, Romans 8 etc). I agree with you that the better word for determining the outcome of all events is preordained. Maybe whatever God has ordained, God will cause it to come to pass. Consider the account of Joseph. God is active in our world and through providence, He makes his plans come to pass 100% of the time. There is nothing impossibe for our Triune God, right? We also need to hold on to whatever God does is right, wise, just and correct. God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Here is an interesting thought that I would like to see if someone would like to answer. Does nature have a will of its own, or does God send us sun, rain, and even natural disasters which many suffer and perish? Let’s consider the Scriptures in determing the forces of nature.

Luke 8:25

He said to them, “Where is your faith?” And they were afraid, and they marveled, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that he commands even winds and water, and they obey him?”

Genesis 6:17

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

John 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

 

[tGette]

That’s a great question. I think when predestination or predestined is used in the Bible, it is used in the context of the eternal destination of individuals (Ephesians 1, Romans 8 etc). I agree with you that the better word for determining the outcome of all events is preordained. Maybe whatever God has ordained, God will cause it to come to pass. Consider the account of Joseph. God is active in our world and through providence, He makes his plans come to pass 100% of the time. There is nothing impossibe for our Triune God, right? We also need to hold on to whatever God does is right, wise, just and correct. God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Here is an interesting thought that I would like to see if someone would like to answer. Does nature have a will of its own, or does God send us sun, rain, and even natural disasters which many suffer and perish? Let’s consider the Scriptures in determing the forces of nature.

Luke 8:25

He said to them, “Where is your faith?” And they were afraid, and they marveled, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that he commands even winds and water, and they obey him?”

Genesis 6:17

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

John 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Thanks…but it was a terrible questions because I vainly just typed God as “got”. Lord, please forgive me!

Let me post it correctly:

“My question is:
Does predestination mean that God preordained everything from the beginning? Meaning that all good AND evil were in this divine plan?”

Very bad on my part!

 

[Reformed]

Thanks…but it was a terrible questions because I vainly just typed God as “got”. Lord, please forgive me!

Let me post it correctly:

“My question is:
Does predestination mean that God preordained everything from the beginning? Meaning that all good AND evil were in this divine plan?”

Very bad on my part!

That is a great question with mystery. What is the origin of evil? God created Lucifier, right? God could have created Lucifer and all of the fallen angels just like the angels who did not fall, correct? Did the angelic beings have free will? The Bible actually makes a distinction between the elect angels and the fallen angels. Why didn’t God create all the angels as elect angels? The same with redemption, why didn’t God elect all sinners for reconcilation, adoption, and glorification? My conclusion for all things…is that God does all things for His own glory. All that God does is glorious. God is light and in Him there is not darkness at all.

1 Timothy 5:21

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

 

[tGette]

That is a great question with mystery. What is the origin of evil? God created Lucifier, right? God could have created Lucifer and all of the fallen angels just like the angels who did not fall, correct? Did the angelic beings have free will? The Bible actually makes a distinction between the elect angels and the fallen angels. Why didn’t God create all the angels as elect angels? The same with redemption, why didn’t God elect all sinners for reconcilation, adoption, and glorification? My conclusion for all things…is that God does all things for His own glory. All that God does is glorious. God is light and in Him there is not darkness at all.

1 Timothy 5:21

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

I meditate on this quite a bit during prayer.

I am constantly asking God:
“If with You all things are possible…why did You not just create everything, without compromising our freewill, to not be fallen and not be sinful?”

I sometimes feel like it is unfair that we are “deprived, fallen creatures” in need of a savior. I rejoice every day for what God has done for me and I love this gift of life…but I sometimes ask God:
“Was it really a humble thing You did on the cross? Was it maybe an arrogant thing ‘I died for the world!’ ?”

Despite these questions…by God’s grace, my faith can never falter because I have experience God too many times to doubt to the point of disbelief.

It has been said that God would be a sick, twisted God if He let us go through all of this suffering just so we can go to Heaven. Is He not even more sick and twisted that He lets us go through all of this suffering and only an “elect” get to go to Heaven?

 

[Reformed]

I meditate on this quite a bit during prayer.

I am constantly asking God:
“If with You all things are possible…why did You not just create everything, without compromising our freewill, to not be fallen and not be sinful?”

I sometimes feel like it is unfair that we are “deprived, fallen creatures” in need of a savior. I rejoice every day for what God has done for me and I love this gift of life…but I sometimes ask God:
“Was it really a humble thing You did on the cross? Was it maybe an arrogant thing ‘I died for the world!’ ?”

Despite these questions…by God’s grace, my faith can never falter because I have experience God too many times to doubt to the point of disbelief.

It has been said that God would be a sick, twisted God if He let us go through all of this suffering just so we can go to Heaven. Is He not even more sick and twisted that He lets us go through all of this suffering and only an “elect” get to go to Heaven?

I think all Christians struggle with this. Why are we able to believe and most do not? I think the Apostle Paul answers this. We have to remember that God is the center of the Universe, and we are not. Did God have to create any of us? The wages of sin is death. Isn’t God gracious to allow any of us to have another day of breath? God would be completey just to withdrawl the gift of life when we commit our first personal sin. God would have been just to not allow others to be born at the point of Adam’s disobedience. These questions are good for us to relect upon, so we can appreciate our great God in greater depth.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9

 

[Reformed]

Spiritual Blessings in Christ - Ephesians 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

The Church is not the Roman Catholic Church, but rather the universal church.

 

[tGette]

I think all Christians struggle with this. Why are we able to believe and most do not? I think the Apostle Paul answers this. We have to remember that God is the center of the Universe, and we are not. Did God have to create any of us? The wages of sin is death. Isn’t God gracious to allow any of us to have another day of breath? God would be completey just to withdrawl the gift of life when we commit our first personal sin. God would have been just to not allow others to be born at the point of Adam’s disobedience. These questions are good for us to relect upon, so we can appreciate our great God in greater depth.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9

**
I have to get some things done, but before I leave I will quote from the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel…which, interestingly enough is the Old Testament reading for Mass this weekend!**

Ezekiel 18:25-28:
“You say, “The LORD’S way is not fair!” Hear now, house of Israel: Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair?
When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die.
But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life;
since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

and the rest of the chapter…which I am adding (not part of Mass):

Ezekiel 18:29-32
“29 And yet the house of Israel says, “The LORD’S way is not fair!” Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair?
30 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you.
31 Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!”

How are we guilty if God preordained everything?
How are we the ones “returning” if God preordained for some to return and some to not?

God willing…this will segue into what I want to mention soon enough! Praise God for how this thread has unfolded so far!

 

[Reformed]

**
I have to get some things done, but before I leave I will quote from the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel…which, interestingly enough is the Old Testament reading for Mass this weekend!**

and the rest of the chapter…which I am adding (not part of Mass):

How are we guilty if God preordained everything?
How are we the ones “returning” if God preordained for some to return and some to not?

God willing…this will segue into what I want to mention soon enough! Praise God for how this thread has unfolded so far!

Do you see the mission of Jesus Christ as a rescue mission from our condemned condition? If so, did Christ try to rescue all sinners from their condemned status before God? If God sent Christ to redeem all sinners, what is preventing God from doing this? For God would know beforehand that the majority of humanity could not choose life in Christ if left to their own free will. Please focus on the biblical themes of justice, mercy, and grace. Focus on the bad news in Romans chapters 1, 2, and 3 to give insight to your questions. Also, please consider Romans 5 and our condemnation in Adam as our Federal Head. We both embrace the truth of original sin.

 

[ncgolf]

For God would know beforehand that the majority of humanity could not choose life in Christ if left to their own free will.

Are you saying some are saved against their own will? God forces himself on us? How can that be love?

 

[RobHom]

Are you saying some are saved against their own will? God forces himself on us? How can that be love?

Ahhhh, you have just taken aim at their “Achille’s heel”. That is precisely what he/they are saying. Predestination/Double Predestination… I don’t buy a bit of it. Man has free will. Man proves it every day. That cannot be denied. Only non-human mammals, insect, reptiles, etc lack free will.

Reformed… Yes, Christ was on a “rescue mission” if you want to call it that. If man did not have free will…** Why then would a rescue mission be needed??** All the twisting and warping of the meanings of some obtuse scriptures will not disprove that man has free will.

I am a Catholic, born and bred, as well as educated. I consider Jesus Christ as my Saviour… but I also know that if I choose to exercise my free will wrongly…I am capable of sinning to the point of eternal damnation. That’s why it is called FREE WILL. It is the God given ability to make decisions. The operant words are GOD-given.

Now, if you say… I would turn against God because He “will’s” it…thus condemning me to hell… Tell me then…Why would God do that? Because He is bored? Because He is nasty and vindictive? Or just because He can? But more importantly, why would God “will” me to turn against Him?

Consider the following:

From here… newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#arg

*Free will and the Christian religion

The problem of free will assumed quite a new character with the advent of the Christian religion. The doctrine that God has created man, has commanded him to obey the moral law, and has promised to reward or punish him for observance or violation of this law, made the reality of moral liberty an issue of transcendent importance.** Unless man is really free, he cannot be justly held responsible for his actions, any more than for the date of his birth or the colour of his eyes. All alike are inexorably predetermined for him.** Again, the difficulty of the question was augmented still further by the Christian dogma of the fall of man and his redemption by grace. St. Paul, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, is the great source of the Catholic theology of grace.
*

The bolding was mine.

If you consider the facts…to believe that man does not possess free will, then you must accept that man has virtually no say in his salvation. You are also saying that Mussolini, Hitler, Idi Amin and countless others to include Ted Bundy…had no free will, thus are NOT ACCOUNTABLE, thus they receive salvation just as much as one who has obeyed God. A ridiculous statement I know…but no less ridiculous than saying “Man does not possess free will”.

Sorry, but this is one subject whose discussion is like “discussing” what the sound of one hand clapping sounds like…

 

[rikkk1958]

This thread is not easy for us to explain because first of all who are we to question God’s plan for all His creations. My utmost understanding is that the “free will” is an ultimate test for everyone so that we can achieve God’s grace and mercy. Jesus death was a reminder for all of us that sins are not acceptable to God just like the flood during Noah’s time when sinners were literally wiped out from the face of the earth. It is also true that we contemplate sometimes on why God just did not give us the straight way of life so that we can no longer sin, however, we still have to ask again, who are we to question the will of God. Job’s life was an example. I’d like muslims to answer this thread because their “full submission” concept is really supposed to be the best way to attain salvation, however, base on God’s gift of free will to mankind, full submission maybe meaningless unless you are only using it as your guidance for God’s mercy and grace. This is why perhaps, the Catholic Church decided to “purge” one’s dead body who did not fully attained God’s grace during his lifetime and our intercession to pray for that dead man’s spirit is a must that it might attain mercy from God. Our world is full of vanities and it truly is the source for sinning to our Lord.

 

[Reformed]

Please consider the OP. This is a study on the apparent free will according to the Scriptures. Let’s see what God reveals on the subject as compared to our personal views.

 

[tGette]

The Church is not the Roman Catholic Church, but rather the universal church.

Could you please explain what the “universal church” is?
Please let it be in connection with our Lord’s prayer from John Chapter 17

*"19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”
*

---

**Now this next quote is from the thread “Hail Mary”:

**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
That’s the distinction. We have a different understanding of what Christ accomplished in His life and death on our behalf. God is not dependent upon human beings to accomplish all that He ordains. God causes human beings to conform to His will. It is written throughout the OT and NT that God changes the hearts and minds of men to accomplish His will. If God intervenes, then mankind does not have free will at that point. Who hardened the heart of Pharaoh?
**

**And I replied: (I took out some irrelevant things.)

**

Your remark here seems almost like a contradiction.

Even if God is changing the hearts of people to accomplish His Will, is He not using people to accomplish His Will?

It is the people who are carrying out His Divine Will!

So in that sense, He needs us to do this.
No people…no one to die for.
No people…no one to pass on the message of salvation!

I am not saying God NEEDS us as in He is lonely…but now that He gave us life…we are His instruments of carrying on the Gospel of His Saving Work!

Simply put, our works and God’s works are not mutually exclusive.

We just require God’s works to be able to do our works.
(So also a sinner needs God’s grace to keep on sinning.)

Basically…if everything is preordained by God, then there is NO freewill!
And if God is “forcing” us to do His will…then we are not truly free.
But if in the awesome power of God He created us so free that we respond to His Loving grace by obedience, then we freely choose to do His Will!

Even Jesus did not want to do the will of the Father…yet he obediently made His will the will of the Father. Did this mean Jesus had no other choice? (Did God preordain Himself to go through the agony of not wanting to do His own will?) Even though He is God, in His humanity, Jesus chose to be to make His human will the Father’s Heavenly, Divine Will.

I still want to ask my question soon…please Lord, let me ask!

P.S. - I guess I have kind of turned this topic into a “faith and works” versus “faith” discussion too…sorry if that is too off topic for your intended purposes with this thread. Please let me know!

 

[Reformed]

Are you saying some are saved against their own will? God forces himself on us? How can that be love?

If you think about it, Roman Catholicism does the exact same thing in regards to infants. Roman Catholicism teaches infant baptismal regeneration. When the baby is baptized according to Roman Catholicism, the baby is born again apart from the free will of the infant. God doesn’t save us apart from us freely choosing Him. God grants us spiritual eyes to see Him, enabling us to freely choose Him. Who would not freely choose Christ once that are able to see who He really is.

 

[tGette]

If you think about it, Roman Catholicism does the exact same thing in regards to infants. Roman Catholicism teaches infant baptismal regeneration. When the baby is baptized according to Roman Catholicism, the baby is born again apart from the free will of the infant. God doesn’t save us apart from us freely choosing Him. God grants us spiritual eyes to see Him, enabling us to freely choose Him. Who would not freely choose Christ once that are able to see who He really is.

This last sentence reminds me of another thread I wanted to begin…
Called:
“Who Goes to Hell?”
Maybe God will let me start that thread sometime!

 

[RobHom]

Please consider the OP. This is a study on the apparent free will according to the Scriptures. Let’s see what God reveals on the subject as compared to our personal views.

I have consider the “OP”…but the problem is that my response is not limited to “personal views”. Here is the basis for my conclusions, as it is the sum of what I have learned in my life regarding this subject.

saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

You will find this paragraph…and it pretty well sums it up:

**St. Paul warns us that justification and sanctification are a life-long process, and we should be vigilant not to turn against God and lose our justification. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews is particularly powerful, “For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).” Paul assures us that those who take justification of grace for granted and continue to rail against God and defy cooperation with grace can lose their justification. Paul also warns Christians to be vigilant, “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway”. Paul tells us that he himself must resist the temptations of the flesh lest he be cut away from the Body of Christ. **

Seems that “Free Will” is a definite according to scriptures.