Free Will in the light of Scripture

[RobHom]

Do you at least agree that Roman Catholicism is a theology of synergism?

It certainly isn’t monergistic…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Reformed, I think this article would help you understand at least on your objection concerning justification.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp

It’s title Is Salvation an Act or a Process?
By Kenneth J. Howell

 

[chrisb]

Grew up Free-Will Baptist here and I take issue with any derogatory characterizations of Arminian theology.

Free-Will is not at the expense of Predestination nor is Predestination at the expense of Free-Will.

I think what some need to do is define what we mean by Free-Will and Predestination so that we can agree or disagree if such are actually scriptural.

Regardless of any differences between Orthodoxy, Catholic and Arminian Theology we might agree that each have always opposed belief in unconditional reprobation - God’s selection of some persons to spend eternity in hell as if by some twisted Divine Lottery. Because we opposed that, we also oppose unconditional election - the selection of some persons out of the mass of sinners to be saved apart from anything God ses in them. According to Arminians the two are inextricably linked; it is impossible to affirm unconditional selection of some to salvation without at the same time affirming unconditional selection of some to reprobation, which, Arminians believe, impugns the character of God.

Opening statement…

 

[Philthy]

]
Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature.

We call this “infant baptism”

He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word,

Wait a second - who’s doing the preaching and by what power? Is this part voluntary?
No wonder so many evangelists can come across as being obnoxious - they are under the illusion that God is simply waiting for sound waves to reach your ear so that He gives himself the green light to save you. So they just bullhorn the message rather than engage in it.

“In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration.”

These definitions focus entirely on “coming to faith” and not at all on “persevering in faith”. If the only consideration were “coming to faith” I would largely agree, but Scripture addresses the “walk” of faith as well. Faith is a lifetime event. Our will is engaged with our faith and sin is constantly knocking on the door. It is a race we must run and “he who perseveres to the end will be saved”.

For more in-depth treatment of this topic click here…
monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

I’ve read several pages…have you? Im still waiting for some definitions

 

[Reformed]

Reformed, I think this article would help you understand at least on your objection concerning justification.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp

It’s title Is Salvation an Act or a Process?
By Kenneth J. Howell

Why don’t you start a justification thread between the RC view and historic Protetsant view? My biggest rejection of Roman Catholicism is over the doctrine of justification. The other stuff are really secondary issues (with the exception of authority).

 

[Philthy]

Here’s some commentary on some commentary from your link…

Cross-Examination: Foreordination & Free Will"**
By Dr. Greg Bahnsen**

We Believe
Based on texts like Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:9-11, etc., we hold that the Bible teaches that God has decreed in an unchangeable fashion from all eternity what events will take place in nature and history – and even what decisions men will make.

Notice that he fails to articulate anything more than “God knows what choices will be made”. He does not make the claim that God causes or forces those choices to occur - merely that He *knows in advance *the choices. The question of the freedom of the will has to do with the degree of coersion that exists in the exercise of the will, not the degree to which God knows how we will actually choose.

He has predetermined the end from the beginning of all things, as well as the means by which all His ends shall be accomplished. According to His own wisdom and in deference to nothing whatsoever outside of Himself and His purposes, God has predetermined or foreordained everything that will happen in the created order and what men will do.

Again, this is shadowboxing. Lots of big words, but has he said that God causes all of the choices that man makes? Is God the cause of evil choices?

Think of some notorious Biblical examples of this. When Moses did wonders in the presence of Pharaoh, demanding that God’s people be liberated, the Bible says that Pharaoh refused to listen and hardened his heart (Ex. 7:13). Pharaoh did as he wished and made his own choices – which is why he later suffered at God’s hands for his obstinacy. Nevertheless, Pharaoh’s free choice to harden his heart was previously decreed by God, who told Moses in advance that He as God would harden the heart of Pharaoh (Ex. 4:21). The Persian Emperor, Cyrus, made his own free choice to release the Jews from captivity and rebuild Jerusalem. Yet the Bible tells us that God foreordained that Cyrus would decide to do such things (Isaiah 44:28; 45:13). These things were prophesied by God and brought to pass according to His wise plan or counsel, without taking anything away from the reality of the volition exercised by Cyrus in history.
In the days of Christ the two earthly rulers, Herod and Pontius Pilate, deliberated on options available to them and eventually determined for themselves to have Jesus executed. Along with the Jewish people themselves, Herod and Pilate were guilty before God for such a choice. The Bible says they did so “with wicked hands” (Acts 2:23). However, the very same text of Scripture tells us that what they did was done “according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.” In Acts 4:27-28 we read: “For of a truth, against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”
Well then does the Bible declare that “the king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases” (Proverbs 21:1). We see this in the case of the free decisions made by monarchs like Pharaoh, Cyrus, Herod and Pilate.

These are specific examples where God acts in Scripture. He has a good point in bringing up the Pharoah. Some question remains as to whether the “I will harden his heart” is an act of causation or a withdrawal from the conscience of Pharoah which leaves him incapable of any good choice.

(And surely the Lord likewise directs the hearts and decisions of all those who are less than mighty kings as well.)

This is a huge leap of which I am not at all certain. Where is the Scripture to support such a leap? It is unacceptable to make such a claim without one iota of support.

And here we have a problem
Over and over again we see that from the Biblical perspective there is no conceptual difficulty in asserting that God has foreordained the decisions which men freely make. God determines in advance what individuals will choose to do, and yet those individuals genuinely decide for themselves to do it.

And here he slips yet again into his vague language, “God determines in advance”. If he means say that God causes the outcome, say it. Determining the outcome in advance is irrelevant. Perhaps some day men may even have the ability to determine things in advance. That does not mean they caused the events.

con’d

 

[Reformed]

It certainly isn’t monergistic…

Therefore it is by default synergistic (Arminian, semi-pelagius)

 

[Philthy]

Examination
Question**:** But if God predetermines the choices that men make, then they are not truly free choices since men cannot help but do what God has ordained – in which case men are merely puppets without moral responsibility for what they do. How can you reconcile God’s sovereign foreordination with man’s free will?
Answer**: **The first thing we have to admit about this pattern of reasoning (viz., God ordained it, so man is not free and responsible) is that it directly contradicts the teaching of God’s infallible word. The Biblical logic says that God’s foreordination does not deprive man of freedom or responsibility. Who can credibly claim to correct God for such an alleged error? Obviously we need to go back and find out what is wrong in our own way of thinking.

There is nothing obvious here except that he does not have a clear answer to a very clear question: If God CAUSES people to make choices how can we call them free choices? A free choice is one which we are not CAUSED to make. I wouldnt admit that it “contradicts God’s word” I’d question my understanding of Gods word instead, but he doesnt entertain that possibility.

It seems that many people make the mental mistake of thinking that God’s sovereign plan and control over the things in this world somehow changes the very character and operation of those things. Thus if God sovereignly predetermines how a man will use his volition (his free will), then man’s volition is no longer really his volition (his free will is not actually free). But such reasoning is fallacious.

Another big claim - lets see if he can prove it.

When we hold that God predetermined that the wind would turn a particular windmill, we do not thereby deny the reality of the wind.

This proves nothing. The wind caused the windmill to turn, the windmills turning was not “free”.

When we hold that God predetermined that a glass of water would quench your thirst, you cannot infer from that fact that the water is not truly water. Take for an example the bones of Jesus. We know from Biblical teaching that Jesus had a genuine human body; thus his bones were real human bones – made of the same material as anybody else’s bones and capable of breaking. He did not have steel or super-divine bones. Yet the Bible declared in advance that his bones would not be broken (John 19:36). God predetermined that the bones of Jesus would not be broken, but in so doing God did not alter the nature or those bones as bones. They did not mysteriously become unbreakable material. They still were regular bones.
Similarly, when the Bible teaches us that God foreordained the free decisions made by men, we should not infer that those free decisions were not really free after all.

No we wouldnt infer that from saying that they were “foreordained”, we would infer that only if they were IRRESISTABLY CAUSED by God - whether in advance or in real time. Once the agent of cause exists external to the operator, the operator no longer becomes the sole cause and any action or choice no longer is free…

Man’s volition remains just that – his volition. God is able, according to Biblical teaching and reasoning, to determine in advance that a man will exercise his free will in a particular way – and the man freely does so. Without force or compulsion, the man genuinely chooses to do what God had already foreordained.

He seems to know full well that to say that God “causes” man to act a particular way directly contradicts the notion of man “freely” choosing. To directly claim that God causes man to sin yet man freely chooses to do so is pure nonsense.

 

[Philthy]

Examination
Question**:** But if God predetermines the choices that men make, then they are not truly free choices since men cannot help but do what God has ordained – in which case men are merely puppets without moral responsibility for what they do. How can you reconcile God’s sovereign foreordination with man’s free will?
Answer**: **The first thing we have to admit about this pattern of reasoning (viz., God ordained it, so man is not free and responsible) is that it directly contradicts the teaching of God’s infallible word. The Biblical logic says that God’s foreordination does not deprive man of freedom or responsibility. Who can credibly claim to correct God for such an alleged error? Obviously we need to go back and find out what is wrong in our own way of thinking.
There is nothing obvious here except that he does not have a clear answer to a very clear question: If God CAUSES people to make choices how can we call them free choices? A free choice is one which we are not CAUSED to make. I wouldnt admit that it “contradicts God’s word” I’d question my understanding of Gods word instead, but he doesnt entertain that possibility.

It seems that many people make the mental mistake of thinking that God’s sovereign plan and control over the things in this world somehow changes the very character and operation of those things. Thus if God sovereignly predetermines how a man will use his volition (his free will), then man’s volition is no longer really his volition (his free will is not actually free). But such reasoning is fallacious.

Another big claim - lets see if he can prove it.

When we hold that God predetermined that the wind would turn a particular windmill, we do not thereby deny the reality of the wind.

This proves nothing. The wind caused the windmill to turn, the windmills turning was not “free”.

When we hold that God predetermined that a glass of water would quench your thirst, you cannot infer from that fact that the water is not truly water. Take for an example the bones of Jesus. We know from Biblical teaching that Jesus had a genuine human body; thus his bones were real human bones – made of the same material as anybody else’s bones and capable of breaking. He did not have steel or super-divine bones. Yet the Bible declared in advance that his bones would not be broken (John 19:36). God predetermined that the bones of Jesus would not be broken, but in so doing God did not alter the nature or those bones as bones. They did not mysteriously become unbreakable material. They still were regular bones.
Similarly, when the Bible teaches us that God foreordained the free decisions made by men, we should not infer that those free decisions were not really free after all.

No we wouldnt infer that from saying that they were “foreordained”, we would infer that only if they were IRRESISTABLY CAUSED by God - whether in advance or in real time. Once the agent of cause exists external to the operator, the operator no longer becomes the sole cause and any action or choice no longer is free…

Man’s volition remains just that – his volition. God is able, according to Biblical teaching and reasoning, to determine in advance that a man will exercise his free will in a particular way – and the man freely does so. Without force or compulsion, the man genuinely chooses to do what God had already foreordained.

He seems to know full well that to say that God “causes” man to act a particular way directly contradicts the notion of man “freely” choosing. To directly claim that God causes man to sin yet man freely chooses to do so is pure nonsense.

 

[Reformed]

Grew up Free-Will Baptist here and I take issue with any derogatory characterizations of Arminian theology.

Free-Will is not at the expense of Predestination nor is Predestination at the expense of Free-Will.

I think what some need to do is define what we mean by Free-Will and Predestination so that we can agree or disagree if such are actually scriptural.

Regardless of any differences between Orthodoxy, Catholic and Arminian Theology we might agree that each have always opposed belief in unconditional reprobation - God’s selection of some persons to spend eternity in hell as if by some twisted Divine Lottery. Because we opposed that, we also oppose unconditional election - the selection of some persons out of the mass of sinners to be saved apart from anything God ses in them. According to Arminians the two are inextricably linked; it is impossible to affirm unconditional selection of some to salvation without at the same time affirming unconditional selection of some to reprobation, which, Arminians believe, impugns the character of God.

Opening statement…

I believe hyper-calvinism is heretical too. However, bibilcal Calvinism is different than hyper-calvinism. Do you see Free Will Baptist theology similar to Roman Catholicism on the understanding of free will, and predestination?

 

[RobHom]

Therefore it is by default synergistic (Arminian, semi-pelagius)

Neither…Arminian or semi-pelagian…

Are you ever going to cough up those “definitions”>>>?

 

[Philthy]

The term free will needs to be explained because Rome rejects Pelagius’ view on free will. In addition, when I state Roman Catholicism is semi-pelagius…everyone gets bent out of shape. So, what does Rome mean by free will?

CCC Free will

**1731 **Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
**1704 **The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man.” But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
**1993 **Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
**When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. **

Incapable of receiving it without grace yet still requiring man’s cooperation. Read it carefully and you might actually learn something.

 

[Reformed]

This is a huge leap of which I am not at all certain. Where is the Scripture to support such a leap? It is unacceptable to make such a claim without one iota of support.
And here he slips yet again into his vague language, “God determines in advance”. If he means say that God causes the outcome, say it. Determining the outcome in advance is irrelevant. Perhaps some day men may even have the ability to determine things in advance. That does not mean they caused the events.

con’d

You’ll be quite surprised how sovereign God is in the Scriptures when you start looking for it. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Proverbs 21:1

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Romans 13

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

 

[RobHom]

CCC Free will

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
**1704 **The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man.” But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
**1993 **Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
**When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. **

Incapable of receiving it without grace yet still requiring man’s cooperation. Read it carefully and you might actually learn something.

I already posted all of this for him. Apparently his “playbook” is missing the “rebuttal” to Free Will. Or, he really doesn’t understand “Calvinism”. No sure which…but he’s trying to run other plays at the same time. Its known as “obfuscating”.

 

[Philthy]

You’ll be quite surprised how sovereign God is in the Scriptures when you start looking for it. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Proverbs 21:1

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Im not surprised by anything except, perhaps, that once you come to believe something you can twist almost any Scripture to justify that belief and blindly ignore twice as much Scripture which clearly refutes it.
Your quote is limited to one king, at best. God is not mocked - a man will reap what he sows.
Please be sure to read my comments that wrote for your benefit. You have yet to show a single ounce of effort in your “quest” for knowledge.

 

[Reformed]

Im not surprised by anything except, perhaps, that once you come to believe something you can twist almost any Scripture to justify that belief and blindly ignore twice as much Scripture which clearly refutes it.
Your quote is limited to one king, at best. God is not mocked - a man will reap what he sows.
Please be sure to read my comments that wrote for your benefit. You have yet to show a single ounce of effort in your “quest” for knowledge.

Genesis 20

Abraham and Abimelech
20:1 From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” 4 Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

 

[Philthy]

I already posted all of this for him. Apparently his “playbook” is missing the “rebuttal” to Free Will. Or, he really doesn’t understand “Calvinism”. No sure which…but he’s trying to run other plays at the same time. Its known as “obfuscating”.

Either that or he actually is a robot!

 

[Reformed]

Deuteronomy 2:30

30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

Joshua 11:20

20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=harden+heart&src=esv.org

Please do your own study. God does whatever He pleases. Who can prevent His plans to come to pass?

Psalm 135:6

Whatever the Lord pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.

 

[Philthy]

I dont doubt God’s sovereignty or ability to intervene in our affairs. I simply believe its the exception rather than the rule. Even the quote you provided implicitly suggests that the kings being handed over by Gods Will was an exceptional thing, otherwise why state the obvious?

Why dont you supply the NT verse that says God causes us to sin to accomplish his will?
Why dont you supply the NT verse that says that God judges His own actions that we irristably engaged in?
Why wont you even bother to define what you think free will is?

 

[Reformed]

Either that or he actually is a robot!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I have free will, and I control my own fate!

or

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8