Free Will in the light of Scripture

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I promise this is pertinent and I know this was kind of answered earlier.

But in a more straight forward either “YES or NO” style or succinct answer:

Please tell me your beliefs on what happens after we repent and God forgives us of our sin.

Does he have a memory bank/archive of them all?

Or does they just simply no longer exist to God?

Thanks!
 
Reformed said:
Therefore it is by default synergistic (Arminian, semi-pelagius)😉
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Classic Arminianism is not semi-pelagian Reformed. You’re making a straw-man with this assertion.

Synergism and monergism are terms with many shades of meaning. Both are essential theological concepts in this discussion, but both apply to wider spheres than Arminianism and Calvinism.

Synergism is any theological belief in free human participation in salvation. Its heretical forms in Christian theology are Pelagianism and semi-Pelaginaism. The former denies original sin and elevates natural and moral human ability to live spiritually fulfilled lives. The latter embraces a modified version of original sin but believes that humans have the ability, even in their natural or fallen state, to initiate salvation by exercising a good will toward God. When conservative theologians declare synergism is a heresy, they are usually referring to these two Pelagian forms of synergism.

Contrary to confused critics, Classical Arminianism is neither Pelagian nor semi-Pelagian! But it is synergistic. Arminianism is evangelical synergism as opposed to heretical, humanistic synergism.

People who say that Calvinists teach predestination and deny free will, and that Arminians deny predestination and teach free will are simply wrong. Both teach both! They interpret them differently. Arminians believe in election and predestination - because the Bible teaches them. These are good biblical truths that cannot be discarded. And Calvinists generally teach free will (although some are less comfortable with the term than others).

What Arminians deny is not predestination but unconditional presestination: they embrace conditional predestination based on God’s foreknowledge of who will freely respond positively to God’s gracious offer of salvation and the prevenient enablement to accept it. Calvinists deny that free will entails the ability of a person to do other than what he or she in fact does. Insofar as they use the term free will positively. Calvinists mean what philosophers call compatibilist free will - free will that is compatible with determination. Free will is simply doing what someone wants to do even if that is determined by some force internal or external to the person willing. Of course, Calvinists do not think the Arminian account of predestination is adequate, and Arminians do not think Calvinists’ account of free will is adequate. But it is simply wrong to say that either group denies either concept!
 
Reformed said:
Deuteronomy 2:30

30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

Joshua 11:20

20 For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=harden+heart&src=esv.org

Please do your own study. God does whatever He pleases. Who can prevent His plans to come to pass?

Psalm 135:6

Whatever the Lord pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.
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I dont doubt God’s ability to do whatever He pleases nor do I question whether anyone can prevent His plans from coming to pass. That’s why I wont be doing my own study - it would mock my faith in His sovereignty. After all, if He accomplishes his Will as he pleases, why would I even begin to interject my own will to guide my behavior? I trust that He is accomplishing His Will through my apathy. Are we on the same team now?
 
tGette said:
I promise this is pertinent and I know this was kind of answered earlier.

But in a more straight forward either “YES or NO” style or succinct answer:

Please tell me your beliefs on what happens after we repent and God forgives us of our sin.

Does he have a memory bank/archive of them all?

Or does they just simply no longer exist to God?

Thanks!
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It’s not that easy to say yes or no because we have different understandings. For instance, God commands all to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet repentance is granted by God to some, and saving faith is a gift from God given to some.
 
Reformed said:
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8
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  • Who are those whom he foreknew?
  • Are there some that God does not foreknow?
 
Reformed said:
It’s not that easy to say yes or no because we have different understandings. For instance, God commands all to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet repentance is granted by God to some, and saving faith is a gift from God given to some.
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So we are all involved in a ‘Divine Lottery’ aren’t we? God is ultimately arbitrary.
 
Reformed said:
I have free will, and I control my own fate!

or

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8
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The problem is this…as I see it: You are splitting hairs. First of all… to reach the point where the quoted scripture would become true…you would have had to make a conscious decision to accept God into your life. If you reject God, then there is no way that the scriptures become true.

Predestination as the concept you seem to view it…sounds like this:

If a man rejects God, he was predestined to hell. But if that man repents and accepts God, he was predestined to be saved. But then again, if a man rejects God, he is predestined to hell…and even if he repents and accepts God…he is still doomed to hell.
But then again, if a man accepts God, then rejects God later he is still predestined to be saved. :eek:

I don’t mean to be uncharitable…but it would appear that someone (not I) who is very confused…and who is trying to use the word “predestination” to mean something it doesn’t mean.

It would seem that Calvinism merely says: No matter what you believe or do, you have no say in the matter… God has already decided on your fate, and even if you are Idi Amin, Stalin, or Hitler, you might end up in Heaven. Ummm, no wonder so many people reject Calvinism. It doesn’t make a lick of sense.
 
Reformed said:
It’s not that easy to say yes or no because we have different understandings. For instance, God commands all to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet repentance is granted by God to some, and saving faith is a gift from God given to some.
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Is that “obfuscatory” or what?
 
Philthy said:
I dont doubt God’s ability to do whatever He pleases nor do I question whether anyone can prevent His plans from coming to pass. That’s why I wont be doing my own study - it would mock my faith in His sovereignty. After all, if He accomplishes his Will as he pleases, why would I even begin to interject my own will to guide my behavior? I trust that He is accomplishing His Will through my apathy. Are we on the same team now?
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We can be on the same team if you allow me to call you a Calvinistic Catholic, okay?

I think God will discipline us when we become apathetic.

Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12
 
Philthy said:
  • Who are those whom he foreknew?
  • Are there some that God does not foreknow?
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Those whom he foreknew are not the ones Jesus never knew. Who are the ones God did not foreknow? Please consider the Scriptures:

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matt
 
Reformed said:
LOL… how about those who were never chosen in the first place?
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What is so funny? 🤷

Concerning your question, that gets into predestination. I imagine we have different ideas about the definition, so it’s probably best if we start with some definitions. (In order to not talk past one another)

My simple definition: God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill).

How do you define it?
 
chrisb said:
So we are all involved in a ‘Divine Lottery’ aren’t we? God is ultimately arbitrary.
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Being chosen by God is winning the divine lottery. Please consider 1 Cor 1 to humble our pride of being chosen.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
 
RobHom said:
The problem is this…as I see it: You are splitting hairs. First of all… to reach the point where the quoted scripture would become true…you would have had to make a conscious decision to accept God into your life. If you reject God, then there is no way that the scriptures become true.

Predestination as the concept you seem to view it…sounds like this:

If a man rejects God, he was predestined to hell. But if that man repents and accepts God, he was predestined to be saved. But then again, if a man rejects God, he is predestined to hell…and even if he repents and accepts God…he is still doomed to hell.
But then again, if a man accepts God, then rejects God later he is still predestined to be saved. :eek:

I don’t mean to be uncharitable…but it would appear that someone (not I) who is very confused…and who is trying to use the word “predestination” to mean something it doesn’t mean.

It would seem that Calvinism merely says: No matter what you believe or do, you have no say in the matter… God has already decided on your fate, and even if you are Idi Amin, Stalin, or Hitler, you might end up in Heaven. Ummm, no wonder so many people reject Calvinism. It doesn’t make a lick of sense.
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To understand Calvinism, you need to go through the 5 points in order. Check out TULIP because the Scripture reavels that we are all born spirituality dead. A dead man cannot choose Christ because he is dead. Who makes someone spirituality alive to be able to freely choose Christ?

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. - Eph 2

Colossians 2:13

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
 
ryanoneil said:
What is so funny? 🤷

Concerning your question, that gets into predestination. I imagine we have different ideas about the definition, so it’s probably best if we start with some definitions. (In order to not talk past one another)

My simple definition: God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill).

How do you define it?
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Are you saying that God does not intervene in the lives of believers and unbelievers alike? I agree God knows all things before they happen. What do you mean by free will, that God is on the sideline as a spectator? Or is God controlling history through divine providence to make come to pass all that he pre-ordained before the foundations of the world? Either God is in complete control or not. Either God does whatever He pleases or He does not.
 
Lord, Jesus Christ,
Please pray for us to the Father to resolve this!
I just want us to be one, just as You wanted us to be when you prayed to our Father.

Lord, I would love it if you would start an account and make a post on some of these threads…but I have a feeling that would compromise our free will. Because for us to have true faith we have to believe with out seeing.

But Lord, I wonder, is there really a true thing called faith if you preordained who would have faith and who would not?

It confuses me Lord. Did You preordain Yourself to die for us. Did you create us as fallen, sinful creatures just so you could come to Earth as a man and then go through the agony of not wanting to go through with what was preordained?

Please enlighten us Lord. I know the Bible contains truths about You, but the Bible says that you are the Word of God and this is why I call on You. You are the Word that the Bible says all the books on the planet could not contain.

So I call upon the infinite power of Your Word…which is You! Certainly You are not the Bible…right? So when we call the Bible Your Word…are we saying that the Bible is You?

Please help us Lord!

Thank you!
All Glory and Honor be to Your Most Adorable Name Lord Jesus Christ!

Amen, Amen!
+
 
Reformed said:
Are you saying that God does not intervene in the lives of believers and unbelievers alike? I agree God knows all things before they happen. What do you mean by free will, that God is on the sideline as a spectator? Or is God controlling history through divine providence to make come to pass all that he pre-ordained before the foundations of the world? Either God is incomplete control or not.
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I do understand “Calvinism”…and I reject it in its entirety as false doctrine…as do many other faiths. TULIP is nonsense. In face, I can’t believe that any sentient being could buy it.

Free will does mean that God gave us the gift of being able to decide whether or not we choose to worship Him, or deny Him. One good, the other bad.

You speak of God preordaining history as if he laid it all out and that’s how its going to happen… It almost sounds as if you think God has a sick sense of humor or something. Why would God preordain that Hitler would come on the scene and murder millions of innocent people, or that Stalin would appear and slaughter even more people than Hitler, or the Khmer Rouge would come on the scene and kill anyone in Cambodia that could read and write??? Are you sure you’re not a “nihilist”.

I’m sorry my friend…but you are starting to sound just a brick or two short of a full load…:eek:
 
Dear Heavenly Father,

Please reveal your complete sovereignity in all things through your Holy Scriptures so that you would be glorified through an increasing faith in your adopted children. We believe, please help our areas of unbelief. Help us to trust in you more in times of trials, suffering and difficult times… knowing that you cause all things to work together for good for those who love you and are called according to your purpose. Help us to see and believe in your precious promises in your Holy Scriptures. We ask these things in Jesus’ name.

Amen
 
RobHom said:
I do understand “Calvinism”…and I reject it in its entirety as false doctrine…as do many other faiths. TULIP is nonsense. In face, I can’t believe that any sentient being could buy it.

Free will does mean that God gave us the gift of being able to decide whether or not we choose to worship Him, or deny Him. One good, the other bad.

You speak of God preordaining history as if he laid it all out and that’s how its going to happen… It almost sounds as if you think God has a sick sense of humor or something. Why would God preordain that Hitler would come on the scene and murder millions of innocent people, or that Stalin would appear and slaughter even more people than Hitler, or the Khmer Rouge would come on the scene and kill anyone in Cambodia that could read and write??? Are you sure you’re not a “nihilist”.

I’m sorry my friend…but you are starting to sound just a brick or two short of a full load…:eek:
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Do you think God has the power and ablility to prevent all that you posted above? Why or why not? If God has the ability, but does not prevent all of that terrible history, do you blame God. My answer why things happen in history is summed up in one word: sin. God would be completely just, righteous and glorious if He in His judgement destroyed the entire world in a flood. But God always has a remnant chosen by grace to the praise of His glorious grace.
 
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