Free Will in the light of Scripture

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ryanoneil said:
I tried to point out the things we have in common (to lay a foundation for dialog), without focusing to much differences that can’t be reconciled.

Would you be willing to comment on the points of my post, and say what aspects Calvanists would agree with?

Then knowing what we agree on, we can talk about what we disagree on.

P.S I was thinking more along the lines of you being able slightly change your idea of predestination, the elect, and free will, in order to live out your life as a Catholic who started off Calvinist. 😃
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LOL…but which version of “The One True Church” of being Catholic (East or the West) should I live out my life? These are very in depth issues. Maybe you should start a new thread?
 
Philthy said:
Calling someone a Calvinist Catholic makes about as much sense as saying God caused me to make my free choice. 😉
Discipline is irrelevent IF it has no bearing on my eternal destiny. Even St Paul was inspired to say that he doesnt compare the present suffering to be ANYTHING compared to the future glory God has prepared. So your comment that “God will discipline us” is basically meaningless. If the suffering gets too bad I could always opt out of this life, right? Unless you are prepared to discuss a “discipline” which occurs after this life.
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I’m starting to learn that the light of Holy Scripture is quite meaningless to some Roman Catholics. How can you say discipline is irrelevant and meaningless in the light of Hebrews 12? Discipline by God of His adopted children is a mighty grace of God, used to transform us into the image of Christ. Roman Catholicism seems to drift farther and farther away from the light of the Word of God (Holy Scriptures).

Hebrews 12

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

n
 
Philthy said:
So they are the workers of lawlessness who thought that by merely paying lip service to Christ (Call him Lord) that they were his disciples?
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Study the words foreknew or forknown with “I never knew you”.
 
Reformed said:
LOL…but which version of “The One True Church” of being Catholic (East or the West) should I live out my life? These are very in depth issues. Maybe you should start a new thread?
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I was mostly joking around. If you do start a new thread send me a private message.

Is reformed protestant a form of Calvinism?

In the mean time, do you care to comment on the Catholic view of Tulip?

Is there anything that you just can’t agree with?
 
ryanoneil said:
I was mostly joking around. If you do start a new thread send me a private message.

Is reformed protestant a form of Calvinism?

In the mean time, do you care to comment on the Catholic view of Tulip?

Is there anything that you just can’t agree with?
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Reformed Theology is Calvinism. I think we will side track this thread if we discuss TULIP. I will participate in your thread of a Catholic Calvinism. Please look at my link on my signature.
 
Reformed said:
Reformed Theology is Calvinism. I think we will side track this thread if we discuss TULIP. I will participate in your thread of a Catholic Calvinism. Please look at my link on my signature.
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Thanks for pointing out the link. (I snooped around alittle)
I don’t want to commit myself to opening a thread until this semester is done.

How about dabbling with the free will aspects of Irresistible Grace here?
I’m sure we can find plenty of Scripture
 
Reformed said:
Man in His free will is not sovereign over God.

I’m happy that you do in fact realize that. No one, especially I has ever said that. But since God gave us free will, that being the ability to make decisions and choices that determine which way our life goes… man has the ability to make choices and decisions that are not pleasing to God, and may even lead to that man’s eternal damnation. It has absolutely nothing to do with “sovereignty” over God.
Who are you to talk back to God?
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And would not man’s actions in committing sin, or doing good, worshiping God…be proof of “Free Will”? I am well aware of what sin is…

It seems that you do in fact worship a very different God… you have a very strange theology and quote some very odd scriptures to try and bolster an argument…when you have no argument to present. Calvinism is heresy in totality. You have no idea of what “Free Will” is…
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Correction for Robhorn:

Man in his apparent free will is not sovereign over God. Rob… you are just a semi-pelagius. 🤷
 
ryanoneil said:
Thanks for pointing out the link. (I snooped around alittle)
I don’t want to commit myself to opening a thread until this semester is done.

How about dabbling with the free will aspects of Irresistible Grace here?
I’m sure we can find plenty of Scripture
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When you start a Catholic Calvinisim thread, I will participate on it. I’m just exercising my apparent free will.
 
ryanoneil said:
OK! But now I’m wondering if Willy was only acting out of instinct. :rolleyes:
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All of creation fell too, right? Willy has a bent nature too inclined to eat dolphins and seals. I wonder if Willy was a vegetarian before the fall?
 
Reformed said:
Correction for Robhorn:

Man in his apparent free will is not sovereign over God. Rob… you are just a semi-pelagius. 🤷
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No, not in the least… You are simply overly confused as to what the words “FREE WILL” mean. If you actually took time to step out of that “Calvinist cocoon” you have wrapped yourself in…you might actually be able to “understand” what the words mean. I am not trying to be disrespectful or offhand…but you are just way too insular in your thinking. Its almost as if you are a “bot”… totally incapable of doing anything other than casting smoke screens as opposed to dealing with reality. I say this because you revert to tired old “saws”… I told you that man was not above God… I merely told you that you were not God. Nor is it within your purview to judge me or anyone else. That you do, is simply proof that your worship a different god than the God that I do. Maybe yours is “Calvin”… the erstwhile reformer, not the one of Calvin & Hobbs, or am I in error on that count? 😛
 
Reformed[COLOR=blue said:
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I’m starting to learn that the light of Holy Scripture is quite meaningless to some Roman Catholics.
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Or perhaps you simply overestimate your own level of appreciation of the light of Holy Scripture. Then again, perhaps you are mistaken in your contextual appreciation of my comment.
How can you say discipline is irrelevant and meaningless in the light of Hebrews 12?
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You have presented yourself as Calvinist/reformed. You gave us a link to a thread which allegedly is in alliance with your views. I commented on some material directly from this website exposing what I believed were weaknesses in some of the theology put forth. Part of my critique is that the Reformed seem to want to have free will both ways. They want God to be sovereignly causing all events -including people’s choices (and perhaps their apathy) - while maintaining that the people who “make” the choices do so freely and therefore are responsible for the choices they make. It is a clear contradiction of terms to claim that God causes the event that you freely choose. They dont come right out and say God “causes” it - that would be too easy - they say he “predetermines” it or “foreordains” it or some other less specific term.You didnt even bother to read or comment on any of that material I presented and you never bothered even propose a definition of free will. I was being facetious and my comments were not directed towards an understanding of Hebrews, but a continuation of what this thread used to be about: free will.
Yes or no - does God’s “discipline” alter his predestined, predetermined, foreordained, eternally pronounced judgement of whether I will be saved or not according to your theology? No, it does not. In the end, the discipline you speak of has no teeth. For the sufferings of this life are nothing compared to the glory God has in store for the saved. That was the point of my comment and it went entirely over your head - perhaps twice now.
Discipline by God of His adopted children is a mighty grace of God, used to transform us into the image of Christ.
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That sounds like a good thing, no? Here’s the context that began the discussion on discipline:
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Reformed:
I think God will discipline us when we become apathetic.
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Only now you seem to imply the discipline is a negative thing. Which is it? And how is it that you determine that our being “apathetic” is not part of God’s will so that He can discipline us into the image of Christ? Your position does not make much sense and, as I pointed out previously, discipline does not - in your theology - alter our eternal destiny. Its hard to worry too much about if it doesnt really change anything.
Roman Catholicism seems to drift farther and farther away from the light of the Word of God (Holy Scriptures).
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It’s laughable when you make such comments. Perhaps if you would demonstrate a knowledge of Catholicism, or at the very least quote the Catechism in your condemnation of the Catholic faith then your comments might be worth considering. Then again, perhaps you simply enjoy believing that you know it all, feigning pity on all the igorant Catholics.
 
“Philthy”… you do know what “pumping sunshine” means don’t you?😃 “Reformed” does alot of that…why? Because his/her arguments are veiled in obfuscatory nonsense and smokescreens.

Lots or “bark” but precious little “bite”. 😃
 
RobHom said:
“Philthy”… you do know what “pumping sunshine” means don’t you?😃 “Reformed” does alot of that…why? Because his/her arguments are veiled in obfuscatory nonsense and smokescreens.

Lots or “bark” but precious little “bite”. 😃
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I dont disagree. I always assume everyone is truly trying to learn and share and when they put forth such undisciplined, barely rational arguments when I know they are capable of so much more it frustrates me, but I shouldnt worry about it so much. It does though, because I have personal issues regarding the ongoing Catholic vs Protestant debate which creep into my public posts.
As a famous (I wont mention any names publicly) convert told me about his experience as a Protestant (prior to his conversion to the Catholic Church):
“Its a mile wide but only an inch deep”
 
Philthy said:
I dont disagree. I always assume everyone is truly trying to learn and share and when they put forth such undisciplined, barely rational arguments when I know they are capable of so much more it frustrates me, but I shouldnt worry about it so much. It does though, because I have personal issues regarding the ongoing Catholic vs Protestant debate which creep into my public posts.
As a famous (I wont mention any names publicly) convert told me about his experience as a Protestant (prior to his conversion to the Catholic Church):
“Its a mile wide but only an inch deep”
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👍 🙂 😃
 
RobHom to Reformed:
No, not in the least… You are simply overly confused as to what the words “FREE WILL” mean. If you actually took time to step out of that “Calvinist cocoon” you have wrapped yourself in…you might actually be able to “understand” what the words mean. I am not trying to be disrespectful or offhand…but you are just way too insular in your thinking. Its almost as if you are a “bot”… totally incapable of doing anything other than casting smoke screens as opposed to dealing with reality. I say this because you revert to tired old “saws”… I told you that man was not above God… I merely told you that you were not God. Nor is it within your purview to judge me or anyone else. That you do, is simply proof that your worship a different god than the God that I do. Maybe yours is “Calvin”… the erstwhile reformer, not the one of Calvin & Hobbs, or am I in error on that count? 😛
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Gee wiz, Reformed. Is this like the fourth time someone has suggested , politely, that you dont even know what free will is??? Maybe, just maybe, if you really, really want to discuss it then we should try to understand it first? Why dont you take a few minutes to read your own website and cut an paste some basic definitions free will? Has God predestined you to be obstinate in this regard?
 
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