Free Will in the light of Scripture

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Reformed,

You really need to get back on track and give informed answers to Philthy’s request for definitions. This thread won’t accomplish anything until that is done.

I mentioned this on another thread, and I will mention it here. It is wrong to pit the sovereign will of God and the free will of man against one another in an effort to declare that man does not have free will. God has a permissive will and he allows man to operate with free will.

You mentioned Pharoah earlier in this thread. Here is what scripture says about the hardening of Pharoah’s heart.

Exodus 7:13-17
For every man cast down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods. Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the Lord had said. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, he refuses to let the people go. Go to Pharaoh in the morning, as he is going out to the water; wait for him by the river’s brink, and take in your hand the rod which was turned into a serpent.
And you shall say to him, 'The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, sent me to you, saying, “Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness; and behold, you have not yet obeyed.” Thus says the Lord, "By this you shall know that I am the Lord: behold, I will strike the water that is in the Nile with the rod that is in my hand, and it shall be turned to blood

Exodus 7:21-23
And the fish in the Nile died; and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts; so Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the Lord had said. Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not lay even this to heart.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite,** he hardened his heart**, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19
And the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32
And the Lord did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; not one remained. But** Pharaoh hardened his heart **this time also, and did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:7
And Pharaoh sent, and behold, not one of the cattle of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them; as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 9:34-35
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again,** and hardened his heart, he and his servants**. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken through Moses.

Exodus 10:1-2
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for** I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants**, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.”

Exodus 10:19-20
And the Lord turned a very strong west wind, which lifted the locusts and drove them into the Red Sea; not a single locust was left in all the country of Egypt. But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:8
**And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh **king of Egypt and he pursued the people of Israel as they went forth defiantly.

It is clear that scripture indicates that God hardened Pharoah’s heart. It is also clear that Pharoah hardened his own heart. There is obviously something going on here that involves both God and Pharoah. The mechanisms of this are part mystery, but some of it we can understand and discern by scripture.

I will explore Pharoah’s free will and God’s action in my next post.
 
The work of God in Egypt caused Pharoah’s heart to harden and Pharoah also hardened his own heart. What should have changed Pharoah’s heart hardened it. What hardened Pharoah’s heart lifted the hearts and spirits of the Israelites. Even some of the Egyptians hearts were changed while Pharoah’s heart was hardened. We know this because scripture tells us that not only did the Israelites eventually leave in the exodus, but a “mixed multitude” also went with them[see Exodus 12:38].

God’s favor on the Chosen People, even when many of the plagues afflicted them along with the Egyptians, strenghtened them. God’s favor on the the Chosen People hardened Pharoah’s heart. How do we explain this and what does it tell us about grace?

Origen explained it this way. He compared grace to sunlight falling on wet clay and on wax. Some hearts are like the wet clay and some are like wax. When the sunlight falls on the wet clay it hardens. When sunlight falls on wax it softens. God’s signs, wonders, actions, and grace work like this on people’s hearts. Some are softened while some are hardened.

Think about this.
 
HI Pax,

I do apologize to you and others for glossing over many posts. I’m having too much fun on this forum site. Therefore, I am spending too much time here and my work and family time suffers. We are talking about some very deep topics with mystery and tension. I believe all great biblical doctrines have tension: dual nature of Christ, Trinity, Sovereignty of God and man’s moral responsibility and accountability for starters. I put a link on my signature for your own study. I am not rouge Christian and make it up as we go along. There is great unity in the historic Biblical Christian Faith. 🙂
 
I recognize the difficulties associated with time. You are right about the complexities and depth of the issues. There is plenty of mystery.
 
Pax said:
I recognize the difficulties associated with time. You are right about the complexities and depth of the issues. There is plenty of mystery.
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Agreed. Let’s mediate on these things, pray, study the Scriptures and continue next week on this subject. Here is the bottom line. Why are you able to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and most do not? If you embrace an idea of equal free will for all, did God determine for where you are to be born and when (Acts 17). It’s an unfair advantage if we are born in a household of faith or a Christian nation as compared to those born in a pagan nation, Hindu Nation, Islamic nation, etc.
 
Reformed said:
Agreed. Let’s mediate on these things, pray, study the Scriptures and continue next week on this subject. Here is the bottom line. Why are you able to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and most do not? If you embrace an idea of equal free will for all, did God determine for where you are to be born and when (Acts 17). It’s an unfair advantage if we are born in a household of faith or a Christian nation as compared to those born in a pagan nation, Hindu Nation, Islamic nation, etc.
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That falls under the mystery of predestination. Catholics affirm both divine providence and the freedom of the will and we also accept the unequal distribution of grace as a dogma of faith. Otherwise, there would be no one in Hell. As I’ve stated many times in the past, predestination in Catholicism is not mere election of those whom God foresaw would believe. That’s Arminianism. And yet we believe that God involves free will in the fulfillment in time of His plan of salvation. You believe that God is sovereign and yet also believe that Adam had free will. 🤷 Apparently, there is no contradiction there.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
That falls under the mystery of predestination. Catholics affirm both divine providence and the freedom of the will and we also accept the unequal distribution of grace as a dogma of faith. Otherwise, there would be no one in Hell. As I’ve stated many times in the past, predestination in Catholicism is not mere election of those whom God foresaw would believe. That’s Arminianism. And yet we believe that God involves free will in the fulfillment in time of His plan of salvation. You believe that God is sovereign and yet also believe that Adam had free will. 🤷 Apparently, there is no contradiction there.

God Bless,
Michael
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I think you need to teach your fellow Roman Catholics the official Roman Catholic position on these issues. BTW… I agree with what you posted. Many Roman Catholics post like they are Arminians and semi-pelagius. Therefore, who represents the Catholic Church?
 
Simply read official Catholic teaching. An uninformed Catholic is no more helpful than an uninformed Calvinist.

Sometimes it is merely a matter of vocabulary, and someone may appear to be saying something that sounds Arminian because of a poorly articulated point.

That is why definitions are very helpful.
 
Pax said:
Simply read official Catholic teaching. An uninformed Catholic is no more helpful than an uninformed Calvinist.

Sometimes it is merely a matter of vocabulary, and someone may appear to be saying something that sounds Arminian because of a poorly articulated point.

That is why definitions are very helpful.
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Bottom line… Roman Catholic theology is synergestic and not monergistic. We do have different meanings and understanding on key words. Even with the word grace, we do not have the same understanding. I think the free will debate is just a theological playground. It is much more important for me to spend time on gospel related threads. Protestants and Roman Catholics have two different set of vocabularies, and two distinct and seperate gospels.
 
Bottom line? You never intended to explore the topic and simply wouldnt admit it. You throw around a few words like you know something but are not willing to demonstrate that you have explored the nuances of meaning. I suppose I should be grateful that, once again, another claim to confidence in truth apart from the Church is revealed for what it is: a mile wide and an inch deep.
 
Philthy said:
Bottom line? You never intended to explore the topic and simply wouldnt admit it. You throw around a few words like you know something but are not willing to demonstrate that you have explored the nuances of meaning. I suppose I should be grateful that, once again, another claim to confidence in truth apart from the Church is revealed for what it is: a mile wide and an inch deep.
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How about joining us in a Bible Study?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731
 
Reformed said:
How about joining us in a Bible Study?
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Ummm, no thanks. If you can’t provide answers to simple questions, why would any Catholic want to “study” with you. It would seem that you are unable to complete simple requests, and when cornered…try to move in any other direction convenient.

Myself… I’m uninterested in your take on scriptures, simply because I see “Calvinism” as a completely false theology, thus it is useless to even consider.
 
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