Free Will negated by incentives

[PetraG]

If you are talking free will, doesn’t it presuppose sound mind?
Isn’t it irrational to reject God? How can that be a fully informed and free decision, and also be rational? Think about eternal torment for just a second. Is full appreciation necessary for true free will?
And another question if demons and Satan influence, does the influenced opperate with free will?

Were the demons crazy, too, then? How was Adam held culpable at all in the first place?

We know the answer to “the snake made it look good” or “that woman you put here with me made it look good.” That isn’t an excuse. To be tempted is not the same as to be rendered temporarily insane.

The choice between torment and bliss, in the end, is a choice between self-will and the will of God. It isn’t self-will with sufferings piled on. Self-will carries its own penalty. I’m not sure that imagining terrible physical torment even covers it as a metaphor. Even with that prospect, we still think: “oh, but not if it goes the way I think, because done my way, I can have it all.” To suggest “You certainly will not die! God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods” (Gen. 3:4-5) wasn’t some big stretch for the human imagination any more than it was for the angelic imagination.

There is another aspect of incentives. Being afraid of a God who condemns us, then loves us, via apeasment of his Divine justice with the blood of his innocent son represents a scary God. Hard to fall in love with.( This is a debate in philosophy and theology that predates me by many centuries.)
The Franciscans still debate it.
Historically the underlying theology is called Atonement Theory. And
For the first 1000 years of church history Ransom Theory was predominant. Origen basically opined Jesus died as a ransom paid to Satan. ( Yup predominant church theory for a thousand years)
Only 100 years later, Saint Anselm’s substitution Theory( our modern position) was devised. Along the way other theories. Point is if Substitution is right, God has been described by scholars in that Theory as psychotic. What Catholic has not entertained this conflict with the God of love? How does fear hinder the relationship with God?

We don’t have to believe some theory or other.
The question, in the end, is whether or not there is any life worthy of the name, apart from God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Heaven is canceled, 1/5 the church leaves.

“Heaven” is simply the logical continuation to loving God. God is love. Love never dies. You get to love God forever and be happy with him in the next world. You start by practicing now.

Heaven is not some concept of eternal funfest separate from the daily practice of loving God.

 

[Annie]

This seems like your last question.

The problem is that you seem to think Catholicism is all about jumping through hoops so as to avoid Hell.

And it is not like that at all.

Most people, when they start something new and difficult, build in a reward system. If I go to the gym three times this week, I get to buy a new dress. Stuff like that. If I don’t go, I will stay fat and out-of-shape.

Because what is new is difficult, and it helps if we have the carrot and the stick to get is over the hurdle of doing something new.

After a while, we start going to the gym for its own sake, because we begin to like taking care of our health. We feel something is missing if we skip a session.

Another way to see it is logical consequences. If you take highway 9 you will hit traffic and be late for work. Is that a threat of some sort? No, simply an explanation of consequences like if you drive the car drunk, you will never drive it again.

 

[Thom18]

I don’t understand. In order to exercise free will, are you suggesting that there can be no incentives towards either choice?

In such a case, it would likely be even more difficult to make a choice about anything. Today, my mother asked me what I wanted for lunch. Either of the two choices we had sounded equal to me, because I enjoy both restaurants we had as options. We play this “game” every time we go out together because neither of us can make a decision when it’s between two things we consider “good”. It’s far easier for us to reach a decision when the choices have clearly defined incentives and and deterrents. Pressure (time) was the only thing that encouraged a decision to be made at all.

It’s far easier for us to make a choice when we have all, most, or even just some of the facts and/or ideas about something. Given the two options, eternal life (Heaven) versus eternal “death” (Hell), anyone of sound mind would quickly choose to gain life than to forfeit it. However, this isn’t a one time decision. We have to continually make the right choice in order to get to the destination we want. Sometimes we’ll do well and always choose the good. Sometimes we’ll let the desire for carnal pleasures influence us to choose the bad. Both the good and the bad have their incentives and deterrents, and these are what allow us to more easily make a free decision, instead of a random one.

 

[Maximus1]

I am not sure of how you might categorize Adams culpability.
God did remove Adam from the garden, but at the same time he fashioned man with skins to protect him.
Leaving also involves questions as to why.
The conversation ," become like US," describes the ancient view of heaven occupied with beings other than God.
What they were describing seemed to be a problem if man stayed.
That said, I think Adam’s free will was diminished because of his innocence.
Adams life experience, unlike ours, was pre fall, when he ate the apple.
He had no experience with deception at all. ( Like a new born). This gets at the heart of capacity( it need not be brain damage or mental disease).
I

 

[Maximus1]

Divine Union

 

[EndTimes]

Thought Experiment.

Long

Trial A	Trial B
R2D2’s are placed in a building and told about my existence.	R2D2’s are placed in a building and told about my existence.
I say who I am. I don’t mention anything about what happens after their batteries die.
After they die, I tell them the plan.	I say who I am. I mention what happens after their batteries die.
I tell them that I will recharge their batteries after they die.
Their is happyland and sadland. The ones that love me go to happyland, else they go to sadland.	Their is happyland and sadland. The ones that love me go to happyland else they go to sadland.
Result: They freely give love. 80% of them go to sadland as they hate me.	Result: They freely give love. 50% go to sadland as they hate me.

Happyland=Heaven; Sadland=Hell; Experimenter=God; R2D2’s=Humans. Short Version

{Love Me} OR {Love me or you DIE}.
5 Years Later
{10% say they love me} OR {92% say they love me}

The incentives negate free will.

Makes no sense… Our Will is Free… and can not be Negated…

 

[fhansen]

Fear gives way to love the more we know God. And knowledge of God is exactly what Jesus came to reveal. We experiment with another option here, of ourselves playing God -which can be said to be the essence of pride. And until we’re ready to give it up we may not even want to know and believe in Him, let alone hope in and love Him.

Man can be jealous of and angry at the God who they may not even consciously acknowledge. “They hated Me without reason,” Jesus says of His persecutors, quoting Psalms. As the catechism teaches about the original sin (CCC 398), “In that sin man preferred himself to God”.

Just some thoughts. But I think we all default to a “distorted image” of God, a concept that the catechism likewise teaches man obtained at the Fall. And we’re here to overcome that concept, when the time is ripe so to speak. We’re here to begin to learn of the incomparable goodness, trustworthiness, kindness, and love of God for man.

 

[chercheur]

I don’t know that incentives negate free will, I would just say “incentives” inform free will. It seems like “free will” has no content or meaning at all without a connection to concrete things in the world.

 

[PetraG]

his gets at the heart of capacity( it need not be brain damage or mental disease).

Do you get the idea from the plain meaning of the Gospels that Our Lord taught or from the rest of the New Testament that the Apostles that most people utterly lack the mental capacity to know right from wrong or to choose to do right instead of wrong, even after baptism?

Is that the Good News? What’s good about it?

 

[Maximus1]

Please don’t mistake my post for my own opinion. My problem is not with God’s perfect love and endless grace, it is in the portrayal of God that conflicts with that perfect love. I won’t ascribe it to the church per se, but it is certainly some element.

 

[Maximus1]

I didn’t say " utterly" incapable. With Adam I said he had no knowledge involving deception when the serpent suggested eating the apple.
The culpability and conscience sections off THE CCC are generally fact specific. A number of factors can affect them. The idea generally does not negate objective sin, but affects culpability.
Saint Augustine is generally credited with formulating senminal ideas of Mens Rea.
And to answer your question, it is great news because of what it says about sin and sinning.
Julian of Norwich described it as behovely. Brought people to self knowledge. While at the same time equal it with something worse than death.
It is important to understand the lessons of sin, it’s capacity to harm us in many ways, and it’s damage to our relationship with God.
Of course there is:
For the judgement I merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement. James 2:13.

 

[PetraG]

I didn’t say " utterly" incapable. With Adam I said he had no knowledge involving deception when the serpent suggested eating the apple.

You’re saying Adam’s decision to defy the will of God was that he was gullible?
Well, the human race hasn’t lost that trait…

And to answer your question, it is great news because of what it says about sin and sinning.

Does it say a sin is a sin? You and I have no differences on the topic of mercy. The difference is over whether it is “irrational” to reject God and therfore couldn’t be an informed decision (and, presumably, therefore mortaal sin is not even possible because full knowledge and free consent to sin are inherently impossible because the choice is just that bad).

For the judgement I merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement. James 2:13.

No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one. Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. James 1:13-15

So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you of two minds. Begin to lament, to mourn, to weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. James 4:7-10

My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

The Good News is that there is mercy for sin, and that grace offered to us through Christ offers victory over sin and over death. It is not that sin isn’t really sin because we really aren’t culpable because we all have some excuse. That is a deception! The Good News is about repentance and salvation, not handing out excuses.

 

[PetraG]

{Love Me} OR {Love me or you DIE}.
5 Years Later
{10% say they love me} OR {92% say they love me}

The incentives negate free will.

No. To say that eternal life is an “incentive” is to imply that the ways of God are arbitrary.

God is Love. There is no life outside the love of God and the will of God. That is not arbitrary. It isn’t punishment for rejecting God as if God is in a snit because the creature didn’t pony up his or her half of the “deal.” It is a natural consequence of rejecting life and love. It is true now and it is true thereafter.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

God does not create Heaven as an incentive. Rather, due to the nature of consequences people change their behavior, just like an incentive.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Rather, due to the nature of consequences people change their behavior, just like an incentive.

That’s just how things work. I don’t see how trifles like this even matter in of themselves.

 

[Latin]

There are two kinds of free will, LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL and AIDED FREE WILL.
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LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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According to Catholic Theology, only God has LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL and God has given all of us AIDED FREE WILL.
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AIDED FREE WILL
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott,

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. … – This is an INFALLIBLE protection of the salvation of every receiver, without it there is no salvation, (Infallible teachings of the Trent).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nations.

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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As we see above: His wisdom He so Designed/ Planned, Decreed/ Orders from all eternity EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself to the final end for which the universe was created.

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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …

2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless

 

[Maximus1]

I never said objective sin wasn’t sin. I said culpability is always a factor on a case by case basis.
All of the sections about repentance and humility, and identifying and correcting sinful behavior is intact.
It comes down to purpose of the law. It is there as a marker and boundary of Christian behavior . It is couched in serious terms because it is to be taken very seriously.
But the fact is God is very forgiving and Jesus was especially. This let’s you know sin and the law remains an act of love to protect us from our selves. Not a punitive gauntlet to weed out unworthy because we are all rank unworthy. If it was the latter forgiveness and mercy would not be so freely given for those who ask for forgiveness via contrition and repentance.
As for Adam, gullibility was not deliberate. He was born into paradise. An existence where until the serpent, deception, lies, and evil intent did not exist. I don’t presume to know God’s mind but these are certainly potential factors in the analysis discerning culpability.
Make no mistake Adam sinned but that is not the end of the analysis.
See Ezekial 16: 53-63 wherein God’s judgement does not impose restorative violence, but instead restorative justice.

 

[Maximus1]

Is man’s will capable of defeating God’s will? See Ephesians 1:3-4

 

[Daniel27]

To be perfectly honest, I (personally) don’t see much of a relationship between the two. If I were to scramble for one, probably that rationality is usually the tugging force for our free will to go “the right way”. In ‘The Screwtape Letters’, Screwtape (the senior devil) says that to make a human fail and fall into sin, it is the job of a tempter to make sure that the human avoids using wisdom because if they do so, then they see how weakly-founded the temptation for a vice is in comparison to an equivalent act of virtue. I suppose in this sense, we can treat rationality as an act of wisdom, which is said to be the greatest gift from the Holy Spirit.