Free will of angels, demons, saints, and God

[frankpetrucci83]

I just got into a long debate with someone about free-will. It seems to be one of those annoying instances where the Church has not made a definitive ruling about something, yet it can be understood from common sense. Here are the two positions

Position 1: Free-will is given to us in order that we may follow God. People in hell have no free will because they have become a complete slave to sin and are in too much pain to do anything unless God would allow it for a special purpose. As one follows God, they become more free, thus a saint would have greater freedom than a person on earth. Angels have free will but have already made their irrevocable decision. God has free will in the sense that he can make something be or not to be. God cannot choose evil but still has free will. For example, if I decide to sit down or stand up, I am making a free choice, and this is the nature of God’s free will.

Position 2: Only humans on earth and angels have free will. Saints are in heaven and since their destination is eternal, they cannot sin, thus they do not have free will. Angels can choose to sin, as evidenced by some already making that choice. God does not free will because he always must choose what is right in order to be God. Free will can be used to obey or not obey God, God cannot disobey himself, therefore he has not free will.

I took Position 1, however without proof from the CCC or bible, the other person will not consent their opinion

 

[bmullins]

Do we know that someone in Hell cannot make a choice? It might be too late for the choice to make a difference, but there is nothing that says that a person who is in Hell is unable to want to do different. In fact, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus(Luke 16:19-31) shows us that the rich man wanted someone to warn his brothers. Before he was dead I am sure he had no desire to warn anyone, or he wouldn’t be where he was. He has clearly changed his mind about God.

Now in Heaven, we are purified of the evil that causes us to want to sin. Not wanting to sin doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t want to make decisions, or even have free will in our decisions. Just that our choices will be guided by good, always. I’m not sure what kinds of choices there might be in heaven, but clearly God is not forces Saint’s to pray for us. They do it because they want to, or do you think a Saint HAS to pray for you when you ask them to? I am sure they do pray when we ask, but if we say they have to do so… it becomes more of an evocation than a prayer.

I think the problem is we don’t truly understand what it will be like to share in the divine nature of God, in our transformed selves.

 

[frankpetrucci83]

you may be suprised how much information there actually is on this…but let’s take someone in hell for example, if a person in hell decided to exercise his free choice by “following God’s will” then he would have to agree with God’s Justice which sent him there, thus still remaining in hell

we can only do good with the help of God’s grace, people in hell are deprived of this, therefore they cannot do good, also even neutral acts are impossible because they are confined by flames

a person in heaven is completely in harmony with God’s will, therefore there is nothing they do contrary to what God wants…there free will is much like God’s in the sense that choosing evil is no longer naturally possible for them–to understand this, picture the following scenario- how likely are you to put your hand over a flame until the flame burns through? unless their is some extraordinary outside motivator, you have no natural reason to do that…considering that everyone in heaven is sane, they would have no natural reason to contradict God which is far more crazy then the example of the flame

 

[LayingHands]

I just got into a long debate with someone about free-will. It seems to be one of those annoying instances where the Church has not made a definitive ruling about something, yet it can be understood from common sense. Here are the two positions

Position 1: Free-will is given to us in order that we may follow God. People in hell have no free will because they have become a complete slave to sin and are in too much pain to do anything unless God would allow it for a special purpose. As one follows God, they become more free, thus a saint would have greater freedom than a person on earth. Angels have free will but have already made their irrevocable decision. God has free will in the sense that he can make something be or not to be. God cannot choose evil but still has free will. For example, if I decide to sit down or stand up, I am making a free choice, and this is the nature of God’s free will.

Position 2: Only humans on earth and angels have free will. Saints are in heaven and since their destination is eternal, they cannot sin, thus they do not have free will. Angels can choose to sin, as evidenced by some already making that choice. God does not free will because he always must choose what is right in order to be God. Free will can be used to obey or not obey God, God cannot disobey himself, therefore he has not free will.

I took Position 1, however without proof from the CCC or bible, the other person will not consent their opinion

Interesting…it’s a little about how the CC looks at reincarnation. Not really jumping into it, but, acknowledging that there is belief in reincarnation by the CC. I will tell you a theory and you tell me if it can resonate…

GOD and Humanity are one and the same…because we are created in His image…so we are of the same quality, but we are minuscule in comparison to His inexhaustible quantity, which is all and all, all encompassing.

We therefore have all of GOD’s qualities, including Free Will…this is the free choice to use our minds and intelligences, to make decisions and decide for ourselves, how, why and what we are to become. GOD created us to be His friends and devotees (disciples) by choosing Him freely and willfully, in goodness, charity and LOVE (goodness, is in intelligence), we have the birth right as His children, to attain to the Spiritual Heavens, and return back to Him, back to our Father Creator, back to GODHEAD.

GOD says there are 3 modes of Humanities Material Existences, the mode of Goodness, the mode of Passion and the mode of Ignorance ( Demoniac or Evil). By our free will, GOD allows us free will to choose, how we are and make those decisions, plus how we live out our lives, in either, godliness, charity, socially responsible to community and family, etc.,

OR in hot and cold passion, irresponsibility, verbal or physical abusive, anger, hateful.

Or in ignorane as evil indifference to humanity, sociopath or murderer, etc.

Those in GOD’s goodness follow His example and surrender unto Him with prayers and a life of good works…

Those in passion are at the precipice to go either way, by willful choice they will expand to change themselves and to change one’s life…

Those in ignorance (darkness and evil) willfully decide they like who they are and how they have lived within their life choices, and by their false egos, they do not believe that anyone rules them and their actions, nor do they believe or care about their souls.

They will go to punishment in Hell…but, here GOD is all merciful and they will not stay there eternally, but, only as long as is necessary…then they are again reincarnated within the eternal cycle, living towards believing and willfully choosing to return to GOD’s Spiritual Heavens…

It’s a Science, as relayed by GOD.

 

[frankpetrucci83]

Interesting…it’s a little about how the CC looks at reincarnation. Not really jumping into it, but, acknowledging that there is belief in reincarnation by the CC. I will tell you a theory and you tell me if it can resonate…

the catholic church does not believe in reincarnation

GOD and Humanity are one and the same…because we are created in His image…so we are of the same quality, but we are minuscule in comparison to His inexhaustible quantity, which is all and all, all encompassing.

that is not what being “created in His image” means

We therefore have all of GOD’s qualities, including Free Will…this is the free choice to use our minds and intelligences, to make decisions and decide for ourselves, how, why and what we are to become. GOD created us to be His friends and devotees (disciples) by choosing Him freely and willfully, in goodness, charity and LOVE (goodness, is in intelligence), we have the birth right as His children, to attain to the Spiritual Heavens, and return back to Him, back to our Father Creator, back to GODHEAD.

the premise this theory is based on is false, as already stated

GOD says there are 3 modes of Humanities Material Existences, the mode of Goodness, the mode of Passion and the mode of Ignorance ( Demoniac or Evil). By our free will, GOD allows us free will to choose, how we are and make those decisions, plus how we live out our lives, in either, godliness, charity, socially responsible to community and family, etc.,

OR in hot and cold passion, irresponsibility, verbal or physical abusive, anger, hateful.

Or in ignorane as evil indifference to humanity, sociopath or murderer, etc.

Those in GOD’s goodness follow His example and surrender unto Him with prayers and a life of good works…

Those in passion are at the precipice to go either way, by willful choice they will expand to change themselves and to change one’s life…

Those in ignorance (darkness and evil) willfully decide they like who they are and how they have lived within their life choices, and by their false egos, they do not believe that anyone rules them and their actions, nor do they believe or care about their souls.

I would disagree, there is no proof to say all evil people like who they are, if they do, then why do so many commit suicide?

They will go to punishment in Hell…but, here GOD is all merciful and they will not stay there eternally, but, only as long as is necessary…then they are again reincarnated within the eternal cycle, living towards believing and willfully choosing to return to GOD’s Spiritual Heavens…

Hell, according to Sacred Scripture, is eternal, there is no second chance, this is your second chance

It’s a Science, as relayed by GOD.

 

[frankpetrucci83]

Interesting…it’s a little about how the CC looks at reincarnation. Not really jumping into it, but, acknowledging that there is belief in reincarnation by the CC. I will tell you a theory and you tell me if it can resonate…

the catholic church does not believe in reincarnation

GOD and Humanity are one and the same…because we are created in His image…so we are of the same quality, but we are minuscule in comparison to His inexhaustible quantity, which is all and all, all encompassing.

that is not what being “created in His image” means

We therefore have all of GOD’s qualities, including Free Will…this is the free choice to use our minds and intelligences, to make decisions and decide for ourselves, how, why and what we are to become. GOD created us to be His friends and devotees (disciples) by choosing Him freely and willfully, in goodness, charity and LOVE (goodness, is in intelligence), we have the birth right as His children, to attain to the Spiritual Heavens, and return back to Him, back to our Father Creator, back to GODHEAD.

the premise this theory is based on is false, as already stated

GOD says there are 3 modes of Humanities Material Existences, the mode of Goodness, the mode of Passion and the mode of Ignorance ( Demoniac or Evil). By our free will, GOD allows us free will to choose, how we are and make those decisions, plus how we live out our lives, in either, godliness, charity, socially responsible to community and family, etc.,

OR in hot and cold passion, irresponsibility, verbal or physical abusive, anger, hateful.

Or in ignorane as evil indifference to humanity, sociopath or murderer, etc.

Those in GOD’s goodness follow His example and surrender unto Him with prayers and a life of good works…

Those in passion are at the precipice to go either way, by willful choice they will expand to change themselves and to change one’s life…

Those in ignorance (darkness and evil) willfully decide they like who they are and how they have lived within their life choices, and by their false egos, they do not believe that anyone rules them and their actions, nor do they believe or care about their souls.

I would disagree, there is no proof to say all evil people like who they are, if they do, then why do so many commit suicide?

They will go to punishment in Hell…but, here GOD is all merciful and they will not stay there eternally, but, only as long as is necessary…then they are again reincarnated within the eternal cycle, living towards believing and willfully choosing to return to GOD’s Spiritual Heavens…

**Hell, according to Sacred Scripture, is eternal, there is no second chance, this is your second chance
**
It’s a Science, as relayed by GOD.

 

[frankpetrucci83]

the angels are more to the image of God than man is

Gregory says (Hom. in Evang. xxxiv): “The angel is called a “seal of resemblance” Ezekiel 28:12 because in him the resemblance of the Divine image is wrought with greater expression.”

the image of God is more perfect in the angels than in man, because their intellectual nature is more perfect

Secondly, we may consider the image of God in man as regards its accidental qualities, so far as to observe in man a certain imitation of God, consisting in the fact that man proceeds from man, as God from God; and also in the fact that the whole human soul is in the whole body, as God from God; and also in the fact that the whole human soul is in the whole body, and again, in every part, as God is in regard to the whole world. In these and the like things the image of God is more perfect in man than it is in the angels. But these do not of themselves belong to the nature of the Divine image in man, unless we presuppose the first likeness, which is in the intellectual nature; otherwise even brute animals would be to God’s image. Therefore, as in their intellectual nature, the angels are more to the image of God than man is, we must grant that, absolutely speaking, the angels are more to the image of God than man is, but that in some respects man is more like to God.

also, from the Summa

While in all creatures there is some kind of likeness to God, in the rational creature alone we find a likeness of “image” as we have explained above (1,2); whereas in other creatures we find a likeness by way of a “trace.” Now the intellect or mind is that whereby the rational creature excels other creatures; wherefore this image of God is not found even in the rational creature except in the mind; while in the other parts, which the rational creature may happen to possess, we find the likeness of a “trace,” as in other creatures to which, in reference to such parts, the rational creature can be likened. We may easily understand the reason of this if we consider the way in which a “trace,” and the way in which an “image,” represents anything. An “image” represents something by likeness in species, as we have said; while a “trace” represents something by way of an effect, which represents the cause in such a way as not to attain to the likeness of species. For imprints which are left by the movements of animals are called “traces”: so also ashes are a trace of fire, and desolation of the land a trace of a hostile army.

Therefore we may observe this difference between rational creatures and others, both as to the representation of the likeness of the Divine Nature in creatures, and as to the representation in them of the uncreated Trinity. For as to the likeness of the Divine Nature, rational creatures seem to attain, after a fashion, to the representation of the species, inasmuch as they imitate God, not only in being and life, but also in intelligence, as above explained (2); whereas other creatures do not understand, although we observe in them a certain trace of the Intellect that created them, if we consider their disposition. Likewise as the uncreated Trinity is distinguished by the procession of the Word from the Speaker, and of Love from both of these, as we have seen (28, 3); so we may say that in rational creatures wherein we find a procession of the word in the intellect, and a procession of the love in the will, there exists an image of the uncreated Trinity, by a certain representation of the species. In other creatures, however, we do not find the principle of the word, and the word and love; but we do see in them a certain trace of the existence of these in the Cause that produced them. For in the fact that a creature has a modified and finite nature, proves that it proceeds from a principle; while its species points to the (mental) word of the maker, just as the shape of a house points to the idea of the architect; and order points to the maker’s love by reason of which he directs the effect to a good end; as also the use of the house points to the will of the architect. So we find in man a likeness to God by way of an “image” in his mind; but in the other parts of his being by way of a “trace.”

 

[frankpetrucci83]

on reincarnation

Catechism 1013 Death is the end of man’s earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When “the single course of our earthly life” is completed, we shall not return to other earthly lives: “It is appointed for men to die once.” There is no “reincarnation” after death.

 

[LayingHands]

on reincarnation

Catechism 1013 Death is the end of man’s earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When “the single course of our earthly life” is completed, we shall not return to other earthly lives: “It is appointed for men to die once.” There is no “reincarnation” after death.

You certainly have a great deal to say on this, but, I don’t have time right now to do it justice, so I will return after Christmas…

Peace and Merry Christ Mass!