Free will only permitted when full knowledge available!

[John121]

By being able to choose correctly I should of said !

But isn’t that what will is all about the ability to choose right from wrong for example if I only know one way of doing something then I can’t have free choice or free will.

And if I never get thought or have the chance to learn the right from the wrong and retain it in my mind how do I have free will. You must have a choice to have free will and choices are dictated by your knowledge.

 

[Anrakyr]

What you are describing is how angels work hence why they only had one chance. They have perfect knowledge, they can’t be presented with new information to change their mind so it’s once.

 

[ZMystiCat]

By being able to choose correctly I should of said !

I’m still not able to see how that follows. It’s less likely I would choose good if I don’t know what the good is, but it is not impossible, nor is it like I lost the ability to choose at all.

But isn’t that what will is all about the ability to choose right from wrong

At its most basic level, it is about being able to choose something.

Further, again, not knowing what is right and wrong doesn’t destroy one’s ability to freely choose something. It just makes it less likely that they’d choose what is right.

if I only know one way of doing something then I can’t have free choice or free will

I’m not sure that is possible, at least not in any matter that touches on morality.

 

[John121]

This theory that angels don’t have free will is also not true why do you think all the angels fell with Lucifer because they were told knowledge by Lucifer that was not true or partially true and they made the choice between God and Lucifer that was the true ability of free will and freedom to chose.

Because they had knowledge of both the right and wrong thing.

My point is that humans do not have this knowledge because we are not thought or do not learn it.

I give a example say you were told growing up that we came from asteroids and/or monkeys that would suggest the truth is that God did not create us then that God is not real and we were a accident created by a accidental Big Bang and that we are animals and that it’s survival of the fittest and that all pleasure is natural and that natural thing is a good thing Doctors love to say this all of these things I was told when I was younger and now like a good child I listened to these people who were teachers and doctors and committed under the law of God countless sins because the truth I knew is knowledge came from people I trusted so my choices and free will was limited to what I thought was truth.

I was not thought the Bible or did not know the law off by heart so my ability to choose between what is sinful and sinless was not present.

Now if in the case I was thought that God created us and the law off by heart and I had to make a choice between what is right and wrong I could have free will to make this choice as I have the prior knowledge of knowing right from wrong in my mind.

 

[John121]

I’m not sure that is possible, at least not in any matter that touches on morality.

If one is thought that truth is what’s based in reality and what is accurate is based off examples in life for example a doctor saying masterbation is perfect ok and healthy and one did not learn that a person is born with evil and masterbation is against God then how would this person had the freedom to chose right from wrong when the existence of wrong was not known to the person who supposedly has free will.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

how would this person had the freedom to chose right from wrong when the existence of wrong was not known to the person who supposedly has free will.

I think for the most part what you’re trying to say is true.

A person still has free will and freedom, but it is limited, or impeded.

 

[John121]

This moves onto menos paradox you cannot know what you don’t know !

 

[LilyM]

I’m struggling how any one has free will when we don’t have the opposite of knowledge in most cases to do what is right!

For example if I’m in a position to commit intercourse but don’t know that the opposite is chastity and that the reason for why intercourse is a sin before marriage how can you have free choice when you are missing all this knowledge about the right choice.

Please help I genuinely don’t think anyone has proper knowledge therefore lacks the freedom to chose the right choice all besides God who had Godly knowledge on earth !

Think of God’s law in a somewhat similar way to the law of the land.

You (and 99.9% of all people) probably know that under secular law it is a crime, and a serious one, to deliberately lie on your tax return so as to avoid paying some or all of your taxes. You don’t need knowledge of every detail such as when exactly this became law, or exactly what penalty is imposed, to be considered guilty and punished if you choose to deliberately lie on your return.

You are considered to have sufficiently free will if you are aware of the illegality of an act and are not acting under any mental impediment (such as coercion, mental illness, intellectual disability etc) of a type that would prevent you appreciating that the act is illegal and legal punishments apply to it.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Now God in all his knowledge might have a Good answer but I’m nearly 100% sure Jesus was able to be sinless because he knows something we don’t know or/and practiced something we don’t.
in all of human history one person became sinless who Is Jesus which is God because he carry’s omnipotent knowledge about sin and how to avoid it.

John… your profile indicates Catholic. Mary was sinless. This is doctrine. 4 humans were created sinless in the history of the world 2 of them sinned 2 didn’t. 1 was God.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Okay. But I still don’t really know what your point is though.

 

[John121]

Oh ya sorry I forgot Marry was sinless so that just God and the Queen of heaven should humans not be given all that which God and the Queen of heaven was given to overcome sin it’s pretty obvious it’s something supernatural that they did not sin!

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Some sin once we reach the age of reason is committed knowingly. Your example of theft is one. The concept of the “age if reason” is logical. Theft is wrong and the act of “sneakiness” or subterfuge is proof that we know it is wrong. You cant just walk up to a girl and RIP the necklace from her neck because you like it and dont know it’s wrong. That extends even below the age of reason. Take a lollipop from a two year old and eat it in front of them and you will see knowledge of right and wrong. Same with intercourse. No one has to tell someone rape is wrong for it to be wrong, otherwise the streets would be unsafe.

 

[John121]

Theft is allowed to feed yourself if starving under the catechism so like I said knowledge of these things unless you a theologian prevents you from make the right choice.

In many cases for my lack of knowledge and lack of faith in God because of lack of teaching in morals i mad bad mistakes that I know now are bad but at the time it was survival of the fittest !i had no moral or very little when I was early 20s

Because I was thought we were animals basically.!

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

That seems awfully dismissive of Mary. She was created without original sin so that certainly helped her out. I will remind you that “t” tradition holds several saints led sinless or nearly sinless lives with gar less knowledge than you or I. Less free will too. Some saints refused to sin when forced to under threat of death. Every saint named and unamed in heaven is in a state of grace and died free from mortal sin while being purified of venial sin.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

I dont think that is an accurate assessment of your responsibility. It doesnt make sense. In your 20s did you eat your young? Rape at will? Take food from a child? Murder? Engage in incest? Because animals do that.

 

[John121]

When your told through teachers in a catholic school that monkeys and humans share common ancestor and that we were created randomly by a Big Bang of course your going to think your no different then a animal being told we are related to them and if you look into the world it’s pure evil just with more intellect to kill each other and do worse things !

 

[John121]

Now I don’t believe this any more because I had the opportunity to read the Bible eventually and discovered that nearly everything I have been told is a lie besides the Bible and God.

 

[ZMystiCat]

how would this person had the freedom to chose right from wrong when the existence of wrong was not known to the person who supposedly has free will.

First, you haven’t established that free will is strictly the ability to choose right and wrong strictly under the knowledge that they are right and wrong. In fact, I’m not sure if any definition of free will that is so specific.

Second, it doesn’t follow that thinking something is OK or even moral means that they will choose it. Sure, their ability to choose the right is hindered, but it is not removed. Given the circumstances, we may not even consider them accountable, but that’s another matter entirely.

 

[Vico]

I’m struggling how any one has free will when we don’t have the opposite of knowledge
… how can you have free choice when you are missing all this knowledge about the right choice.
…

Will and knowledge are not opposites so it does not require knowledge for will to be free.

Catechism

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. …

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. …

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. …

1859 Mortal sin … implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice.

Freedom has degrees. Abuse of freedom leads to slavery.

Catechism

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

That is off topic. And blaming poor education for not knowing theft is wrong is ludacris