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Hitetlen
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Not much of a reply as far as the posted question is concerned. It would be nice if you actually posted something along those lines, but I will also respect your free will and be content with your evasive answer.
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estesbob
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You problem seems top be that you look upon fatih as some sort of excercise in logic. you DONT have to figure it out. it has been done for us-thats Why Christ founded his Church.I like your take on this problem and I would not have any problem if it were true. However I see that others do not agree with you. Too bad, your approach is quite humane.
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Hitetlen
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There can be some very good reasons. I, myself simply do not believe in God (for example). If I would know for certain that there is a God, AND he deserves my respect, I would be serving him without doubt. Of course I would not serve the God as described in the Bible, who is a jealous, vindictive being, full of spite and hatred. But I don’t think that the Bible is an accurate description of God. If there would be a God, he really would be merciful and loving, and would not require servitude, rather he would be content with our friendship, which is much more valuable (at least in my opinion).
That is probably very true, though I fail to see its significance.
That would really be their choice, and if that would happen, I would be content to leave them be… at least until they would ask again.I hope I never “know” how people think in hell–because it would probably mean I’m there.But you don’t know either, so you can’t predict their response either…You’re back onto the free will question. What if they can freely ask to be pardoned, but they WILL not?
I certainly don’t know that, and if they do, it is their own business. I just cannot imagine anyone doing that, but who am I to speak for others?
No, this is not really correct: the hell they reject may be empty, because everyone chooses to leave it. So the opportunity would be there, leaving free will intact. Just because no one chooses to jump out of a window, the choice is not diminished (yes, I know that some actually do exactly that). And I don’t WANT the ones in hell to change their mind, that is not for me to decide. What I was asking, WHY God does not allow them to change their mind?
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Hitetlen
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No, I see faith as an incorrect epistemological method of learning about reality. The church (any church) is a man-made institution, without any real significance. I do not respect any autority qua authority. If the authority can establish its teaching through proof and reason, THEN I will respect it. As the saying goes: “It does not matter WHO says it, what matters is WHAT is being said”.
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Hitetlen
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I don’t have a “soul” as far as I can see. And I don’t think that anyone could “know” what God wants from us. You cannot appeal to the Bible, since it is just a concoction of fallible humans.
The Catholic Church is just another human establishment, therefore fallible. I see no reason to trust it, unless it can prove or demonstrate its authority. And this demonstration is not forthcoming.
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estesbob
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So why are you posting in a Catholic forum? Are you here to educate the superstitous masses? Are you here to impress us with your intellectual acumen? Or is there, as i suspect, a little nagging fear in the back of your mind that perhaps we are right. To be honest your posts read like you are trying to convince yourself of the corectness of your observations more than you are to convince us.
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mlchance
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Prove it.
– Mark L. Chance.
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gardenswithkids
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It really sounds to me that you’d* like* to have faith in a loving merciful God, but you haven’t found Him yet. Seek and ye shall find.If I would know for certain that there is a God, AND he deserves my respect, I would be serving him without doubt. Of course I would not serve the God as described in the Bible, who is a jealous, vindictive being, full of spite and hatred. But I don’t think that the Bible is an accurate description of God. If there would be a God, he really would be merciful and loving, and would not require servitude, rather he would be content with our friendship, which is much more valuable (at least in my opinion).
The beautiful thing about serving God is that He serves us first, and we serve Him by serving others. The paradox of the Gospel is that the greater serves the weaker. That’s the whole point of Jesus washing His disciples feet at the Last Supper. I strongly recommend you put aside what you think you understand of God from the Old Testament and read one of the Gospels again. I also suggest that you seek God by serving others. You will find Him in the least of our brothers.
From the Catechism on Final Judgement:
678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 **Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.**583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586
582 Cf. Dan 7:10; Joel 3-4; Mal 3:19; Mt 3:7-12.
583 Cf Mk 12:38-40; Lk 12:1-3; Jn 3:20-21; Rom 2:16; 1 Cor 4:5.
584 Cf. Mt 11:20-24; 12:41-42.
585 Cf. Mt 5:22; 7:1-5.
586 Mt 25:40.
And what I answer is WHY do you think they would? Judgement is based on how they treated others. As one saint asked, why do we think we love God whom we can not see, if we don’t love our neighbor whom we can see?
If you want to see God, look at your fellow man because we are made in the image and likeness of God. If you want to love God, love your neighbor. You don’t have to wait until your dead to decide if you want to love your neighbor or not. I strongly suspect that the “secret of your heart” is you want there to be a loving, merciful God, and I’m here to tell you that there is.
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EnterTheBowser
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First remark: syllogistic reasoning is an incomplete system of logic. It just doesn’t do everything it needs to do.
That aside, I actually have a slight problem with Hitetlen’s analysis. I do not think that doxastic voluntarism (big words: it means that we are able to choose what we believe to be true) is the sort of thing that free will depends on. Classically concieved, free will is about choosing actions, not choosing beliefs.
That aside, I actually have a slight problem with Hitetlen’s analysis. I do not think that doxastic voluntarism (big words: it means that we are able to choose what we believe to be true) is the sort of thing that free will depends on. Classically concieved, free will is about choosing actions, not choosing beliefs.
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Hitetlen
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Honestly? I like intellectual challenges, and I like to learn how other people think, even if I happen to disagree with them.
As far as I am aware of my own intentions I have no nagging fear (but we all know that our own intentions are colored by our preconceptions). I don’t try to convince myself, but since I like to keep an open mind, I wish to see how other people think, because I am well aware that I am not omniscient and I wish to consider the possibility that I am mistaken. Is this a sufficient explanation? (As a quick justification: when I took a psychologial profiling test, my aptitude for openness to new ideas was off the scale. I am rather proud that even in my progressed age I can keep a very open mind.)
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Hitetlen
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I am sure you are joking, and if you are not, that is your problem. I certainly would not waste my time on such trivial requests. And I hardly ever waste my time of two word “posts”.
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nico1089
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Hi Hitetlen–It’s fine that people don’t agree with me, they claim to have proof from their support systems. We all know (i hope) that anything in matters of faith have no proof, they only have “opinions”. If their was proof it would no longer be a matter of faith. i love God, with my whole heart and soul and being. God gets first place over everything in this world, including organized religion. The church does not guarantee you a place in heaven. God does. God is with those who follow the first comandment and also love their neighbor as themselves. Christ said so, and i believe him–to me he is God’s only begotten son. For a long time i was monotheistic, God was One–no trinity, Jesus was a mystic who attained union. In personal revelation the trinity was revealed to me so i know that Christ is God. i do not depend on any church for their teachings, i depend fully on God to lead me. Debates about who is right or who is wrong, or this has been prove true or false, or this religion or that is the “real” one no longer interest me, i don’t argue with anyone. i put all my eggs in one basket–God’s basket. When people feel a need to defend their beliefs or back them up with historical" truths"or need to argue about evolution,Islam, Jews to me that is all just stuff from men who need to pray to God to increase their faith. All i pray is “thy will be done” and the prayer of silence. God has overwhelmed me with blessings.i feel his love, i am starting to love others more fully every day. Now the folks are gonna say “he is deluded by the devil” or some such stuff. OOOohh --don’t trust personal revelation, only the priest, the rabbi, the imam or such other learned men have enough intelligence to know what God is really saying or thinking or what his rules and traditions are. Well, look at how far it has gotten them–can you tell they are “brothers by their love”?? Maybe i am not quite smart enough to see all that love, mostly what i see is disputes, arguements, threats, condescending attitudes, and oh, please pray for my cat, my house, my car, my job. My goodness, they should not allow this or that on TV–let’s sign a protest. Me?–dump the TV, i don’t watch it. Oh no!! i missed mass–if i die i am going to be eternally punished in hell unless i get to confession and tell the priest!!–When you begin to see God in every person, you don’t have to go to church on Sunday, or Saturday–every day is the Lord’s day and you can help the least of your brethren and you are with Christ–personally.I like your take on this problem and I would not have any problem if it were true. However I see that others do not agree with you. Too bad, your approach is quite humane.
I used to be like that, every little rule and law mattered and i walked on eggs worrying about sin. Then God led me to believe that if i forgave others, he would forgive me. If i tried to be a better more loving person, he would help me. If i was confused, he would guide me.If i was broken, he would make me whole. And he did! My life on earth is to be a servant–yeah, sounds low and hard, but glory be to God, he is making it easier and even joyful. i am a “new creature” in him. He provides my needs or the patience and strength to do without, which ever he chooses, it doesn’t matter to me. He knows me better than i know myself, what i need, what i don’t need and i trust him fully to provide and, like i said, he does. He is the kindest, most loving, most trustworthy friend one could have. He is all i need. God bless you. Have faith.–nicolo
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Hitetlen
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I agree, but I did not actually try to insinuate that we choose our belief (beliefs are not volitional): if I had positive evidence that God exists, it would invalidate any belief I might have had. Knowing trumps believing any time. I was simply asking why God does not allow changing one’s mind any time. In this respect God behaves as a pushy used car salesman, who offers you a good deal, but only if you accept it in the next ten minutes.
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Hitetlen
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It does not matter if they would or not. As the matter stands now, even if they WOULD they would not be allowed to do it.
Actually I do love other humans (at least most of them). And I don’t need God to tell me that I should. But that is not enough. Since I am a heathen, I am doomed to hell and I don’t get a second chance once I obtain positive proof. As I said to Bowser, God behaves like a used car salesman, who offers you a good deal for a limited time. And I despise used car salesmen, presicely because they are so pushy.If you want to see God, look at your fellow man because we are made in the image and likeness of God. If you want to love God, love your neighbor. You don’t have to wait until your dead to decide if you want to love your neighbor or not. I strongly suspect that the “secret of your heart” is you want there to be a loving, merciful God, and I’m here to tell you that there is.
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itsjustdave1988
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Hitetlen said:
I don’t get this conclusion at all. I have empirical proofs of many things in this life. Explain how empirical proof takes away my free will.
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Semper_Fi_1
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If only God is true, and therefore we knew for sure that God was true, He would not be God anymore would He? Or would we become God, or a separate God, thereby nullifying the omnipotence / omnipresence of God? I put this forward to say that we cannot know for sure God exists until we are cleansed of all of our attachments to earthly things (things created), otherwise it would nullify the omnipotence / omnipresence of God therefore making Him less than God (Latin Catholics call this concept purgatory or purgation of attachment to all things earthly such as vices, etc. and the Beatific Vision. the Beatific Vision comes when you are in the presence of God and know absolutely without any shred of doubt that God exists and you exist in His presence). Make any sense?I am not sure what you mean, and want to avoid another mistake of rendering premature judgment
Formal logic is also unable to find absolute truths. The syllogisms you speak about are also of the form "If ‘a’ is true and ‘b’ is true then ‘c’ is true, or a variant thereof (there are many). We can arrive at formally true statements which are not true in the empirical sense. Formal logic is just a great tool to arrive syntactically true statements, without being concerned whether those statements are also semantically correct.
In the real world only empirical proof counts, and precisely that kind of proofs are missing. The point I am making still holds: why does God take away free will when we shall have empirical proof of his existence?
Most good scientists are agnostic, meaning that they are open to the question since the answer of God is not a scientific question and should be left to theologians. Can you test truth? No, because truth is always there. Scientists observe laws set in place by God but they cannot answer what truth is. As the old saying goes, the truth blinds you. I hope this makes some sense and doesn’t confuse you too much.
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itsjustdave1988
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Ummmmmm…prove the above postulate is true.
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mlchance
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You made two claims, one regarding the Bible, the other the Church The burden of proof is yours. If that is a waste of time then, to quote you, “I will also respect your free will and be content with your evasive answer.”
– Mark L. Chance.
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Hitetlen
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God allegedly does not allow one to change one’s mind after death, when one is supposed to gain real, first hand, positive evidence that God actually exists. Also if one is judged and condemned to hell the free will to choose God is taken away. It is not the actual empirical proof that takes free will away (that would be crazy), it is God who does not allow it any more.
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EnterTheBowser
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Ooops - my misinterpretation. Rock on.I agree, but I did not actually try to insinuate that we choose our belief (beliefs are not volitional): if I had positive evidence that God exists, it would invalidate any belief I might have had. Knowing trumps believing any time. I was simply asking why God does not allow changing one’s mind any time. In this respect God behaves as a pushy used car salesman, who offers you a good deal, but only if you accept it in the next ten minutes.
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