Free will versus belief

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There are two opinions around here.

One: “God gave us free will, so we can decide whether to believe in God, or not.”
Two: “Beliefs are not under volitional control. We believe whatever we feel is believable, and we cannot decide to believe something which simply is not believable.”

To make sure that there is no misunderstanding, I am not talking about actions here. Clearly we can choose whether to go through the motions of worshipping God (for example). But we cannot choose our internal, gut feeing. We are unable to decide that from now on we shall “believe that God exists”.

What is your opinion?
 
Gut feelings are not under complete intellectual control at all times, but we can say with the voice in our heads “x is true” if we decide intellectually to do so. This I think is the more important part of belief than what the gut says.

From what I understand, nearly all Christians go through phases when the Gut, for no discernible reason at all, decides that none of this stuff could possible be true, then later, also for no discernible reason at all, the gut does a 180 and says of course it’s all true, anyone can see that. And all the while the brain is sitting there saying “this is true because of x, y, and z,” more or less independently.

But while Gut feeling cannot be controlled absolutely, it can be influenced by intellect and actions, so while the oscillatory behavior will generally always be there, the intellectual reason can influence to some degree what it oscillates around, what is the “normal” state. What we feel to be true will tend to be somewhat correlated to what we decide is true, and the second is under our control absolutely.

(Which is not to say that it is good to decide that something is true arbitrarily, only that it can be done.)
 
Schopenhauer once said something to the effect that one can do anything he wants, but, he cannot choose what he wants. I think Art had it right.

We experience our choices, I don’t believe we make our choices. There is no ghost in the machine as Decartes argued. There is a brain with chemistry and functiong which produces a sense of “self”.

What is most profound, in my opinion, is the subjective nature of this sense of self. The great frontier for science will be consciousness. Computer science, artificial intelligence and everything that follows will present incredible challenges for people of faith.
 
We do not believe with our wills or with our gut. We believe with our whole spirit which includes the intellect.

“I believe I will live a long life.” I don’t choose to believe this–on what base would I choose, because I want to life a long life!? I don’t trust a gut feeling of longevity, because how would my mere first impression know!?

I think, in order to come to know what I believe.

Neither the will nor feeling is a ground for belief. we have to ask ourselves whether it the claims of faith are reasonable. And if they appear reasonable, or we assume that they are, then we “raise our minds and hearts to God,” i.e. pray. And it is in prayer, through the action of all our faculties (with the will to see and feeling to direct), that we believe or not.

If believing were about my choice or my gut feeling, it would be about me: believing in myself!! not about God.
 
I wonder about this a lot. My experience when I converted was very odd. I prayed intensely for God to guide me to “Truth”, as I had delved into many religions a little bit.
The really strange thing was that part of my prayer was, wait, get this; “I KNOW it ISN’T the Catholic faith!!!”
I said that prayer on my knees, immensely frustrated with the hope of ever finding the Church Jesus established, and thus feeling hopeless, helpless, and blind.

I woke up the next morning and the first thing that came to me was “oh my goodness, I am Catholic!!”

So how did that happen? Especially since I was certain of all the religions, denominations, Catholicism was definitely out? And now when I see others who don’t believe, I wonder, why was I granted that Grace and not them? And if they haven’t been given that Grace, how can I condemn? I truly feel I didn’t make myself Catholic, but that it was a Grace given to me.

Sorry, I didn’t really give an answer, just relating my own experience as points to ponder.🤷

Edit; since coming to the faith, I have had moments of doubt in which I chose to believe. Those doubts though, caused me to look at the dogmas and with reason be able to discern they are true. (with Faith and Grace sprinkled in of course, but then isn’t reason a Grace in and of itself?)
 
Gut feelings are not under complete intellectual control at all times, but we can say with the voice in our heads “x is true” if we decide intellectually to do so. This I think is the more important part of belief than what the gut says.
Well, let’s get down to the details and to specific examples. Let’s take something that both of us find completely unbeliveable, say: “Santa Claus is real, and he uses his magical ways to bring the presents to the children”. Our “gut” feeling is that this is simply a fairy tale for children, but we do NOT have a positive proof that. (yes, we do know about the parents putting the presents under the tree, but that is not actual proof.) Maybe Santa Claus is real… much unlikely it sounds. Now you say that such feelings can be influenced by our intellect.

So, tell me, please… what thought process do you suggest for me to use so I can start to believe that the Santa Claus tale is actually true and not just a legend for gullible children. I trust that you already tried and tested this method, and the end result was that now you positively believe in the real existence of Santa Claus.
But while Gut feeling cannot be controlled absolutely, it can be influenced by intellect and actions, so while the oscillatory behavior will generally always be there, the intellectual reason can influence to some degree what it oscillates around, what is the “normal” state. What we feel to be true will tend to be somewhat correlated to what we decide is true, and the second is under our control absolutely.

(Which is not to say that it is good to decide that something is true arbitrarily, only that it can be done.)
The question is: “how”? How did you convice yourself that Santa Claus exists?
 
What is most profound, in my opinion, is the subjective nature of this sense of self. The great frontier for science will be consciousness. Computer science, artificial intelligence and everything that follows will present incredible challenges for people of faith.
Indeed. As soon as a sophisticated AI will utter the worrds: “I think, therefore I am”, and it will be able to conduct a very long conversation with the most educated humans, and FOOL them into thinking that they actually conducted a conversation with another human… the end times for “stupidnatural” explanations will be over. 🙂 I wish I could live that long…
 
Well, let’s get down to the details and to specific examples. Let’s take something that both of us find completely unbeliveable, say: “Santa Claus is real, and he uses his magical ways to bring the presents to the children”. Our “gut” feeling is that this is simply a fairy tale for children, but we do NOT have a positive proof that. (yes, we do know about the parents putting the presents under the tree, but that is not actual proof.) Maybe Santa Claus is real… much unlikely it sounds. Now you say that such feelings can be influenced by our intellect.

So, tell me, please… what thought process do you suggest for me to use so I can start to believe that the Santa Claus tale is actually true and not just a legend for gullible children. …]

The question is: “how”? How did you convice yourself that Santa Claus exists?
Tell yourself that it is true. Every time the question the question comes up, answer in the affirmative. Your gut may or may not come around eventually, but for a less ridiculous case it may very well (notice I said it can, not that it will).

A more reasonable example would be a sort of lie you tell yourself about your own actions. If you do something bad, and know it’s bad, then you may say that it wasn’t so bad because you were motivated by something good, or were provoked into it, or that “he deserved this”. This may make you uncomfortable at first, but repeat it often enough and that will fade, and you really will believe that the innocent return clerk at walmart deserved to have you shout at her for half an hour because you stepped on a toy you bought and want bring it back, but she won’t accept it 3 years after the purchase date.

Find someone who was really horrible to someone and doesn’t feel guilty about it, I am reasonably certain you’ll find a lie of this sort that they have decided to believe to be true and now believe with both mind and gut.

To be clear this is not, as another poster pointed out, exactly what we mean by faith or belief used in the sense of faith, and not something I consider to be a good thing in general terms. The only time I would consider it to be good is when you use actual rational logical reasoning to decide to believe something that makes you uncomfortable just because you are used to believing otherwise.
I trust that you already tried and tested this method, and the end result was that now you positively believe in the real existence of Santa Claus.
Don’t be silly. My test case was the tooth fairy, who I now clearly know to exist. She also rides a war elephant and eats Democrats (apparently everything tastes good with enough salt).
 
Tell yourself that it is true. Every time the question the question comes up, answer in the affirmative. Your gut may or may not come around eventually, but for a less ridiculous case it may very well (notice I said it can, not that it will).

Yes, Winston Smith finally got the hang of it. It took a trip to room 101, but, with O’Bian’s help, he finally was able to throw Julie under the bus and see that 2 plus 2 does indeed make 5—if only you try hard enough.
 
There are two opinions around here.

One: “God gave us free will, so we can decide whether to believe in God, or not.”
Two: “Beliefs are not under volitional control. We believe whatever we feel is believable, and we cannot decide to believe something which simply is not believable.”

To make sure that there is no misunderstanding, I am not talking about actions here. Clearly we can choose whether to go through the motions of worshipping God (for example). But we cannot choose our internal, gut feeing. We are unable to decide that from now on we shall “believe that God exists”.

What is your opinion?
Two is a fallicy in logical thought, something cannot be and not be at the same time, therefore anything that someone believes is inherently believable.
 
Two is a fallicy in logical thought, something cannot be and not be at the same time, therefore anything that someone believes is inherently believable.
Not “inherently”. A specific person can believe that he is actually Napoleon, or that he is actually a chicken - in the looney bin. But that does not extrapolate into the world of sane people. Just contemplate the question: “can you make yourself to believe that your father was a chimpanzee and your mother was a dolphin?”
 
Tell yourself that it is true. Every time the question the question comes up, answer in the affirmative. Your gut may or may not come around eventually, but for a less ridiculous case it may very well (notice I said it can, not that it will).
You seem to assert that a consistent self-hypnosis will do the trick. I doubt it. I am sure that there are people who can convince themselves of even some preposterous ideas, but not “anything and everything”. And we are talking about the MOST ridiculous cases here. Maybe you don’t realize that the existence of Santa Claus is infinitely more “believable” than the existence of the Christian God. At the very least Santa Claus or the tooth fairy are “only” ridiculous, but not logically absurd. 🙂
 
Yes, Winston Smith finally got the hang of it. It took a trip to room 101, but, with O’Bian’s help, he finally was able to throw Julie under the bus and see that 2 plus 2 does indeed make 5—if only you try hard enough.
You brought up an interesting point. Ever since I read 1984 (and the first time it happened about 40+ years ago) I have been pondering if such a self-deception is really possible or not. I cannot believe that it is… but then again, I was never exposed to Room One-Oh-One. But I don’t think that under normal circumstances such a self-deception is possible.

Maybe that is the whole purpose of “hell”… eventually the “sinner” will learn “to love Big Brother” - as Winston Smith did. 🙂
 
First, I have yet to mention what I’m talking about in reference to God, but in general terms. It does apply to belief in God, but since you seem to keep twisting it to assume that that’s all I care about and that somehow I think everyone should just start believing in God right now no matter what, I think I’ll address part of your comment.
Maybe you don’t realize that the existence of Santa Claus is infinitely more “believable” than the existence of the Christian God. At the very least Santa Claus or the tooth fairy are “only” ridiculous, but not logically absurd. 🙂
You are correct that I did not realize this. This is because, and I say this in the kindest possible way, I am not pants on head crazy.

For one thing, if you don’t think the tooth fairy is logically absurd, you may wish to go back to elementary school.

As for God - Think of what you are saying. You are saying that something nearly every intellectual until fairly modern times has believed, is not only wrong (which is a tenable position, at least a priori) but so wrong as to make these obviously extremely intelligent people stupid.

Even the Greek philosophers came up with their unknown god, to whom they attributed many of the characteristics that Christians say reason alone attributes to God. They had a start on Christianity, but just didn’t have revelation - which is part of why Christianity spread so well there, because it made sense to the philosophers and many of them accepted it as what they were missing.

I’m not sure why it is that you think your position is so obvious as to make the positions of many of the greatest minds on Earth not only wrong, but absurd, but I highly recommend you check out this article, particularly the middle of page 2, which may help you some in continued discussion of these matters.
 
There are two opinions around here.

One: “God gave us free will, so we can decide whether to believe in God, or not.”
Two: “Beliefs are not under volitional control. We believe whatever we feel is believable, and we cannot decide to believe something which simply is not believable.”

To make sure that there is no misunderstanding, I am not talking about actions here. Clearly we can choose whether to go through the motions of worshipping God (for example). But we cannot choose our internal, gut feeing. We are unable to decide that from now on we shall “believe that God exists”.

What is your opinion?
I suppose it depends where one thinks ‘gut’ feelings come from. Personally, I don’t know where they come from. I suppose a number of things. But I am a great believer in trusting your instincts. Reason being, personally I have rarely been misled by my instincts. I have been mislead by my own reason - rationally working things out and weighing up the pros and cons in that I have, on occasion, come to the wrong conclusion. But my ‘gut’ feeling or instinct? No. Bizarre as it may seem, and one could say it is bizarre, they have never to my knowledge been wrong.

Perhaps it’s not so bizarre. People who went to the ‘University of Life’ usually have exceptionally good instinct or gut feeling, and don’t think it’s stupid or irrational to be guided by it. So, if one’s gut feeling tells you there is or may a God, I think one should listen. If your gut feeling tells you no - not sure about that one. I don’t know many who claim their gut feeling or instinct tells them there is no God.

Now all we have to do is work out where they come from. 😃
 
Iron Donkey;9999457:
Tell yourself that it is true. Every time the question the question comes up, answer in the affirmative. Your gut may or may not come around eventually, but for a less ridiculous case it may very well (notice I said it can, not that it will).

Yes, Winston Smith finally got the hang of it. It took a trip to room 101, but, with O’Bian’s help, he finally was able to throw Julie under the bus and see that 2 plus 2 does indeed make 5—if only you try hard enough.
Indeed. 2 plus 2 only equals 4 if you are counting in base 10.

I came across an interesting question in my 9 year old’s math homework. He didn’t understand the question, neither did I, neither did my husband and neither did several students in my year at university. I posted it on the forums in the Clubhouse, and lots of people came up with different answers which, according to how they understood the question, could have been correct.

The moral of the story is - there are many correct answers to 2 + 2.
 
For one thing, if you don’t think the tooth fairy is logically absurd, you may wish to go back to elementary school.
Really? It is just another “magical” and imaginary creature… there is no logical contradiction involved in it.
As for God - Think of what you are saying. You are saying that something nearly every intellectual until fairly modern times has believed, is not only wrong (which is a tenable position, at least a priori) but so wrong as to make these obviously extremely intelligent people stupid.
Oh, please. Not another “argumentum ad numeram”. 😦 Getting very boring. An overwhelming percentage of the people never even thinks about their core belief system. It does not mean that they are “stupid”, they simply swallow whatever was dished out to them in their childhood years. The also huge percentage of the rest (who actually think about it) are pretty shallow thinkers. The remaining tiny percentage generally turned into atheists. 🙂 (Kidding, but only a little). If you consider that the catechism and the dogmas (which were written by relatively educated people) also contains very serious logical fallacies then the whole problem becomes alarming. To posit logical absurdities is unpardonable.

Of course all this is a sidetrack. You presented that one is able to “self-brainwash” oneself into believeing something that was unbelievable. So, there is your task: “try to talk yourself that sand has a lot of nutritional value, and you can sustain your life on eating sand alone”. Or that you are able to levitate by sheer force of will, and try to put it into practice once you are REALLY convinced that it is possible… As they say, the “proof of the pudding is that it is edible”. Go and prove what you stated.
 
I suppose it depends where one thinks ‘gut’ feelings come from. Personally, I don’t know where they come from.
Gut feelings are the result of mostly subconscious thought processes. They cannot be influenced by making “decisions about them”. As I suggested to Iron Donkey, it might be interesting to try and influence what your “gut” tells you is impossible - and then act on the result. The outcome would be good in either case: “the experimenter either could levitate out of the tenth floor window thereby creating a miracle, or would eliminite himself from the gene-pool”. Either outcome would be acceptable.
 
Really? It is just another “magical” and imaginary creature… there is no logical contradiction involved in it.
The tooth fairy hypothesis posits that your teeth are taken from under your pillow by a magical creature. Given that your teeth are not taken from under your pillow by a magical creature, but rather your parents, this hypothesis is false.

Sorry to ruin it for you.
Oh, please. Not another “argumentum ad numeram”. 😦 Getting very boring. An overwhelming percentage of the people never even thinks about their core belief system. It does not mean that they are “stupid”, they simply swallow whatever was dished out to them in their childhood years. The also huge percentage of the rest (who actually think about it) are pretty shallow thinkers. The remaining tiny percentage generally turned into atheists. 🙂 (Kidding, but only a little).
It appears that you’ve swallowed a rather large amount of nonsensical anti-religion propaganda to support your core belief system - which I have to ask if you’ve ever thought about. (Note that rebelling does not count as thought.) But note that I never said you must believe because lots of smart people did, I said it was silly to say that the arguments were obviously stupid because the vast majority of people don’t think so. If they’re wrong, it must necessarily, by the definition of obvious, not be obvious.

Aquinas, Augustine, Albert the Great, Descartes, Pascal… The list goes on. It is extremely silly, an equivalent of sticking your head in the sand, to say that these people either didn’t think about their core belief system (demonstrably false) or became atheists (demonstrably false), and it is beyond silly to wave away their arguments as silly and obviously incoherent because you don’t like them.

And it is crazy to assume that everyone will agree with your assessment that worldviews contrary to your own or obviously stupid when the majority of people hold a world view contrary to your own.
**
Short version: if you think an idea is wrong, argue that it is, don’t just smugly wave your hands and say that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is supporting logical absurdities. **
If you consider that the catechism and the dogmas (which were written by relatively educated people) also contains very serious logical fallacies then the whole problem becomes alarming. To posit logical absurdities is unpardonable.
Yeah, you saw that Catholic up by my handle, I’m sure, and I’m also sure you noticed the “Catholic” between “forums.” and “.com”. If you didn’t, please check those places again.

Now that you have that information, hold it firmly in your mind and consider what you just said.

Obviously, if you’re going to say that Catholicism is full of logical fallacies here, you can’t expect people just to nod along with you.

I find it pretty hilarious that you expected that to fly here. Clearly you cannot expect the “if you consider” part of this statement to hold in general terms, given where you are.
Of course all this is a sidetrack. You presented that one is able to “self-brainwash” oneself into believeing something that was unbelievable. So, there is your task: “try to talk yourself that sand has a lot of nutritional value, and you can sustain your life on eating sand alone”. Or that you are able to levitate by sheer force of will, and try to put it into practice once you are REALLY convinced that it is possible… As they say, the “proof of the pudding is that it is edible”. Go and prove what you stated.
It’s been proved. I’ve given you examples. People do it all the time. Generally self deception to assuage guilt. I imagine you’ve done it yourself, most people have, and could find an example of it if you examined your conscious for a bit.

But it’s not limited to self deception or the convincing oneself of logically unbelievable either. Works for arguments that a person intellectually discovers are valid, but thinks in his gut are wrong. Happens in conversion stories all the time, a person decides that a religion is true (or false), but is so used to thinking of it as false (or true) that his gut feeling disagrees. But because he’s decided that it is, he behaves as though it is, and then eventually the gut comes around. Gut feeling, while useful and not to be ignored lightly, is not always logical.

Heck, it even happens in math and physics classes. Some weird result of the math and the explanations seems totally off the wall, but you accept it anyway because you know it’s true and work with it, and as you work with it while accepting that it is true, the off-the-wall-ness fades and it appears normal.
 
Gut feelings are the result of mostly subconscious thought processes. They cannot be influenced by making “decisions about them”. As I suggested to Iron Donkey, it might be interesting to try and influence what your “gut” tells you is impossible - and then act on the result. The outcome would be good in either case: “the experimenter either could levitate out of the tenth floor window thereby creating a miracle, or would eliminite himself from the gene-pool”. Either outcome would be acceptable.
I don’t think anyone really knows where ‘gut feelings’ come from or even what they are.
Intuition - that probably comes from experience of life, but that doesn’t explain why people with less experience in life can be more intuitive than those who have more.

I don’t know whether you can influence you’re gut feelings or not. Maybe you can, maybe you can’t. I would say one could convince oneself of anything if one wanted to badly enough. However, in my view that is not acting on your intuition or gut feeling. I would also say you can control how you respond to your gut feelings. You can ignore them, or you can listen to them.

Personally I don’t know of anyone who attempted the impossible on the basis their gut feeling told them they could. I’ve heard of people who believed they could achieve the impossible for other reasons. I have read of people who are deemed to have achieved the impossible. I don’t recall them saying at any point they achieved what they did because their gut feeling told them they could. I have heard them say things like, ‘Instinct took over,’ or ‘I didn’t think about it. I just acted on instinct.’ Personally I trust my instincts, ‘gut feelings,’ purely and simply because in my experience of life they have rarely been wrong, and think they are a very necessary life skill and should not be dismissed and ignored. If your ‘gut’ is telling you something, it’s telling you for a reason. The next stage is to work out what that reason is.

In terms of the ‘experimenter,’ I suppose it would depend on who the ‘experimenter’ was whether I would see creating a miracle or eliminating themselves from the gene pool as an acceptable outcome. If you liked the ‘experimenter,’ the former would be preferable. If you couldn’t stand the ‘experimenter,’ then the later may be preferable. If you couldn’t care less about the ‘experimenter’ one way or the other because they meant nothing to you, had no interest in what they were trying to achieve and consequently couldn’t care less whether they achieved it or not, then either would be acceptable.
 
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