Free will - what is it?

[grannymh]

The argument about “free will” is inconsequential unless there are repercussions which come from applying that free will.

If one is “applying” free will – this means that one is applying the power of choice, aided by reason, in a specific situation.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t think you thought this one through. A “will” or “wish” or “desire” to do something is really irrelevant if one is unable to carry it out.
A “will” without the ability to act on it is really irrelevant.

In my humble opinion, “will” or “wish” or “desire” are not synonymous when trying to define free will. Neither is a free will choice quite the same as the ability to act.

 

[grannymh]

“why does God respect (or allow) the free will of a rapist conquer the free will of the victim?”

Free will is a spiritual power of the fully complete human being. It should not be confused with Cartesian dualism in that it is some separate thing which can conquer some other separate spiritual thing.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

 

[R_Daneel]

It is the *argument *about whether the definition of free will which is inconsequential, if there is no ultimate judgment. In the final analysis, as the universe suffers its final heat death, or collapses, what difference is it going to make as to what the definition of free will is?

You argue that choices have consequences. Correct. Both now (on an individual and social level), and I believe eternally (on an individual basis). But if there is no after-life, what difference is the mere definition of “free will” going to make?

Clarification of terms, so we can see eye-to-eye. Your argument could be applied to anything and everything and then your conclusion is that nothing matters at all, if there is no final judgment. Love does not matter, murders do not matter, food and drink does not matter, and of course life or death does not matter. As I said, this looks like nihilsm to me.

 

[R_Daneel]

In my humble opinion, “will” or “wish” or “desire” are not synonymous when trying to define free will. Neither is a free will choice quite the same as the ability to act.

Well, what is the difference? To “will” something that cannot be carried out makes no difference. I can “will” with all my heart to alleviate all the suffering in the world, but since I have no wherewithal to make it happen, it is just an empty wish. If I “will” to help one homeless person, and able to do it, it would only matter, if I actually performed the helping action. “Will” and “action” must go hand in hand - there is no other way.

 

[R_Daneel]

Free will is a spiritual power of the fully complete human being.

That does not help at all. “Spiritual power” is undefined. And a “fully complete human being” is also undefined. You already excluded children from this category - up until some undefined age. What about mentally retarded persons? How about autistic people who are unable to conceptualize abstract terms? Are they also without free will?

 

[grannymh]

That does not help at all. “Spiritual power” is undefined. And a “fully complete human being” is also undefined. You already excluded children from this category - up until some undefined age. What about mentally retarded persons? How about autistic people who are unable to conceptualize abstract terms? Are they also without free will?

Pardon me. I have not excluded children, mentally retarded nor autistic persons nor anyone including myself who recognizes my own limitations.
Here is what I said:

From Post 14. From conception on, we are developing as a unified living being. We are constantly taking in knowledge. This knowledge may be limited by our material body. We may be blind or missing taste buds. Our brains are limited not only physically but by the availability of knowledge. As the body of a child develops so does the use of intellect and will. Thinking and choosing need to be practiced.

There are a lot of extremely good questions in your posts and I would enjoy exchanging ideas. However, being a pooh bear with a very little brain, I will be doing so slowly. Truth be known. I occasionally napped during theology class and am now paying for my sins. In other words, I, too, have to search out answers to my own questions about free will.

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” is meant to be celebrated.

 

[R_Daneel]

Pardon me. I have not excluded children, mentally retarded nor autistic persons nor anyone including myself who recognizes my own limitations.

In that case I am at a loss what a “fully complete human being” might be. This is what you wrote before:

Let’s explore the idea that in order for a human being to be free enough to choose, there also has to be the power of the intellect. In other words, we think of fully developed humans as having the intellectual tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

Here the phrase “fully developed human being” was used. It clearly excludes children and everyone without reason and analytical thinking.

There are a lot of extremely good questions in your posts and I would enjoy exchanging ideas. However, being a pooh bear with a very little brain, I will be doing so slowly. Truth be known. I occasionally napped during theology class and am now paying for my sins. In other words, I, too, have to search out answers to my own questions about free will.

Wonderful I am in no hurry. Please take your time.

 

[grannymh]

In that case I am at a loss what a “fully complete human being” might be. This is what you wrote before:

Here the phrase “fully developed human being” was used. It clearly excludes children and everyone without reason and analytical thinking.

Wonderful I am in no hurry. Please take your time.

Thank you. You are right, I did use fully complete human being and fully developed human being in two different ways as if I were coming from two different viewpoints.

Do you think it is possible that the reason there is so much controversial and conflicting posting on free will is that there are actually two different viewpoints or starting positions in regard to free will. There is a rather interesting quote from David Hume which might help sort out starting points – am remembering that this quote might help sort out what a fully complete human being is. Note to self: look for quote.

There might be more questions than answers.

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” is meant to be celebrated.

 

[R_Daneel]

Thank you. You are right, I did use fully complete human being and fully developed human being in two different ways as if I were coming from two different viewpoints.

Do you think it is possible that the reason there is so much controversial and conflicting posting on free will is that there are actually two different viewpoints or starting positions in regard to free will. There is a rather interesting quote from David Hume which might help sort out starting points – am remembering that this quote might help sort out what a fully complete human being is. Note to self: look for quote.

There might be more questions than answers.

That is possible. Though I am still surprised that such a relatively simple concept is whipping up so many problems. You said you agreed to some of my points, and excluded number 3). I gave you my reasons why it is important. What are your views now?

To sum it up: For free will there must be more than one options to choose from. The person must be aware of these options. The person must be able to carry out these options. There cannot be an external force which would prevent the person from from selecting all but one of them. As long as these conditions are met, it is reasonable to speak of free will.

Of course there would be several more points to consider. The person might have a very strong affinity to perform one specific option. Is this an impediment? To wit: consider a very good person, who feels revulsion to perform something he considers improper. He is aware of the possibility, he is able to do it, he is not forced in any way - yet he would not want to do it. Does he act freely in this case?

 

[grannymh]

Well, what is the difference? To “will” something that cannot be carried out makes no difference. I can “will” with all my heart to alleviate all the suffering in the world, but since I have no wherewithal to make it happen, it is just an empty wish. If I “will” to help one homeless person, and able to do it, it would only matter, if I actually performed the helping action. “Will” and “action” must go hand in hand - there is no other way.

Here are the differences I see between “will” or “wish” or “desire” when trying to define free will.

A wish is fanciful in that it doesn’t always have to be attached to cold reality. I wish I could sing. The fact that I can’t doesn’t deter me from wishing. A wish could also be a long range goal which keeps calling one to persist. Desire has more substance. Desires can come from what we sense, from our emotions, from what we read or learn from others and so on. Desires are usually strong enough so that we want to act on them.

What I see happening with “to will” is that will can be used as a noun, verb, adverb and probably an adjective. Each usage with a slightly different meaning. Dang! This is one of the reasons that I like to limit free will to power or ability that exists within the human being. This power is part of the human being and what makes a human being different from my cousin chilly chimp.

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

 

[grannymh]

That is possible. Though I am still surprised that such a relatively simple concept is whipping up so many problems. You said you agreed to some of my points, and excluded number 3). I gave you my reasons why it is important. What are your views now?

I am beginning to approach free will from the viewpoint that it exists independently of all of your points. But I don’t want to imply extreme dualism. Here are some thoughts I am struggling with.

There are at least two worldviews on CAF. Obviously, one is that humans consist of both the natural and supernatural intimately unified to make up the complete human nature. When I am referring to the fully complete human being, I am referring to this worldview. When considering topics like free will, this worldview considers the human as rational/corporeal, spiritual/material, soul and body.

The second worldview on CAF is that reality is natural material or natural energy. There is no room for supernatural ideas or the mysterious soul. However, practically speaking many who hold this worldview also recognize the immaterial like love etc., Some people who hold the materialistic view of life will say that they experience free will in their own actions. At this point, I don’t want to get into what is experience and what is really experienced. I would like to find a common ground to define free will.

In my humble opinion, the common ground is that free will is basically a power or ability that humans use to make reasoned choices or to determine the direction of their lives. For example. A high school student may have a strong desire to be a medical doctor. He has looked into schools, taken stock of his own abilities, and imagined what the future would be like. He is also aware of his emotions regarding doing good for others. He understands how doctors in his life have affected him.

After much back and forth thoughts, he chooses the medical profession as his vocation. Because of his choice, he begins preparation by raising his grade average to get into medical school, etc. He drinks responsibly. As a high school student, he can make a free choice and determine the direction of his life even though there is nothing which can insure that ultimately he will be able to carry out his choice by having MD after his name.

Does this explain how I can exclude point 3?

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

 

[grannymh]

The ability to think or consider options to rise above mere instinct

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

 

[grannymh]

The ability to think or consider options to rise above mere instinct

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

I like the idea – to rise above mere instinct. Free will choice does exactly that.

 

[R_Daneel]

Here are the differences I see between “will” or “wish” or “desire” when trying to define free will.

A wish is fanciful in that it doesn’t always have to be attached to cold reality. I wish I could sing. The fact that I can’t doesn’t deter me from wishing. A wish could also be a long range goal which keeps calling one to persist. Desire has more substance. Desires can come from what we sense, from our emotions, from what we read or learn from others and so on. Desires are usually strong enough so that we want to act on them.

What I see happening with “to will” is that will can be used as a noun, verb, adverb and probably an adjective. Each usage with a slightly different meaning. Dang! This is one of the reasons that I like to limit free will to power or ability that exists within the human being. This power is part of the human being and what makes a human being different from my cousin chilly chimp.

This all very well. Yes, there is a difference between a fanciful wish and a strong determination - but this difference is in degree, not in kind. One may have a fanciful wish at the beginning and presevere until that wish is fulfilled.

Suppose one has the desire to levitate or fly as a bird. That wish cannot be fulfilled without aid. However, it can be fulfilled via a balloon. All that means that our abilities and the physics of reality limit what we can achieve. Certainly, these limits affect our “will”. But, when push comes to shove, the ability to act on our will (or strong desires) is a prerequisite.

 

[R_Daneel]

I am beginning to approach free will from the viewpoint that it exists independently of all of your points. But I don’t want to imply extreme dualism. Here are some thoughts I am struggling with.

There are at least two worldviews on CAF. Obviously, one is that humans consist of both the natural and supernatural intimately unified to make up the complete human nature. When I am referring to the fully complete human being, I am referring to this worldview. When considering topics like free will, this worldview considers the human as rational/corporeal, spiritual/material, soul and body.

The second worldview on CAF is that reality is natural material or natural energy. There is no room for supernatural ideas or the mysterious soul. However, practically speaking many who hold this worldview also recognize the immaterial like love etc., Some people who hold the materialistic view of life will say that they experience free will in their own actions. At this point, I don’t want to get into what is experience and what is really experienced. I would like to find a common ground to define free will.

We are in synch so far.

In my humble opinion, the common ground is that free will is basically a power or ability that humans use to make reasoned choices or to determine the direction of their lives. For example. A high school student may have a strong desire to be a medical doctor. He has looked into schools, taken stock of his own abilities, and imagined what the future would be like. He is also aware of his emotions regarding doing good for others. He understands how doctors in his life have affected him.

After much back and forth thoughts, he chooses the medical profession as his vocation. Because of his choice, he begins preparation by raising his grade average to get into medical school, etc. He drinks responsibly.

As a high school student, he can make a free choice and determine the direction of his life even though there is nothing which can insure that ultimately he will be able to carry out his choice by having MD after his name.

Does this explain how I can exclude point 3?

Unfortunately, no. What you describe above is exactly what I mean when I say that the ability to act on the students desire raises his his “wish” beyond the fanciful stange and makes it a goal to be accomplished. He certainly could have a different goal in mind, and could achieve that if he so chose. So the PaP is fulfilled. He has the locus of decision, so the LoCC is fulfilled. His goal is attainable - which is what point #3 asserted. So I **think **that we have full agreement.

 

[grannymh]

This all very well. Yes, there is a difference between a fanciful wish and a strong determination - but this difference is in degree, not in kind. One may have a fanciful wish at the beginning and presevere until that wish is fulfilled.

Difference in degrees sounds good because it allows that change from a fanciful wish to a strong determination. These can exist in our minds without making a choice about them.

Suppose one has the desire to levitate or fly as a bird.

At what point does the person choose to fly as a bird?

That wish cannot be fulfilled without aid.

Has the wish turned into a decision to fly or is it still a wish?

However, it can be fulfilled via a balloon.

That sounds like the person has made a choice to fly as a bird. Now that the choice has been made, one looks for aids. Regardless, if there are any aids available, the choice has been made.

All that means that our abilities and the physics of reality limit what we can achieve.

Take this sentence out of context and one understands the reality of the material body and the material universe. However, one still can experience making a choice. This is because the act of choosing originates in the person. The act of choosing remains under the control of the person. The person is responsible for making the choice.

Certainly, these limits affect our “will”. But, when push comes to shove, the ability to act on our will (or strong desires) is a prerequisite.

To me it looks as if “will” is a verb meaning physical action not mental choice. And then it looks as if will is also a strong desire. Desires can influence a mental choice but they are not choice itself.

Does it help clarify what I am talking when I insert the word mental before choice?
Would it be better to look at free will as a choice?
What about the word decision?

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

or

 

[grannymh]

We are in synch so far.

Unfortunately, no. What you describe above is exactly what I mean when I say that the ability to act on the students desire raises his his “wish” beyond the fanciful stange and makes it a goal to be accomplished. He certainly could have a different goal in mind, and could achieve that if he so chose. So the PaP is fulfilled. He has the locus of decision, so the LoCC is fulfilled. His goal is attainable - which is what point #3 asserted. So I **think **that we have full agreement.

We need to double check what all we have said.

1. The agent must be (physically) able to carry out either course. What determines that the student is physically able to become a medical doctor? Current good health would be a good sign. But continued good health cannot be guaranteed.

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

or

 

[grannymh]

What you describe above is exactly what I mean when I say that the ability to act on the students desire raises his “wish” beyond the fanciful stange and makes it a goal to be accomplished.

Here is where I would suggest that there are all kinds of things which contribute to making a decision (act of free will choice). Having the ability to accomplish a “wish” would raise it to a goal. But, at that point, there could still be other possible goals he could choose which is what we both agree on.

Where we differ is that I don’t consider being able to accomplish a decision is necessary for making a decision. Helpful, yes. To put it another way. Practically speaking, we often make decisions to do something before we truly know that we can physically carry them out.

Would it help if I added that once a decision is made, it is not set in stone. Because the choice is due to our power to make choices freely, we can continue to make choices which help carry out the original one.
Being feminine, I can change my decisions at any time.

Christmas Blessings,
granny

The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

www.CatholicsComeHomeRockford.org or

 

[AndyF]

The odds of selecting the proper choice of those given is greatly improved by honing the conscience. The more we obey the inclination to good, the better that becomes.

Andy