Free will with only one soul

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iggywid

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Let’s say God only ever created one soul, let’s say Adam. God is the “definition” of goodness, and there is no evil, therefore no choice (correct me if I’m wrong here, I don’t like thinking in dichotomies), so can Adam possibly have free will?
 
If God created one soul with no ability to do evil then that soul would not have free will.

As it happens in reality, God created multiple souls with free will and the ability to do evil.
 
Freedom. To choose right or wrong - even in a single person. Like you or I. Remember that we are called to love God - therefore we must have the freedom to love or hate Him.
 
Free will to obey or disobey God. The Only One Who knows us better than ourselves & therefore only knows what’s good for us.
 
iggywid said:
Let’s say God only ever created one soul, let’s say Adam. God is the “definition” of goodness, and there is no evil, therefore no choice (correct me if I’m wrong here, I don’t like thinking in dichotomies), so can Adam possibly have free will?
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NO CHOICE = NO FREE WILL

God’s 1st creation of creatures, were the angels. They were created good. There was no evil. However one angel in particular (Lucifer) rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels followed Him. There was choice from the beginning between good and evil, or none could have rebelled.
 
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Saying the angels were created “good” contradicts your assertion they had free will to rebel. Are you really saying they were created “neutral” with a 50/50 chance of rebelling? God would know ahead of time which angels would rebel. He could have chosen to not create those particular ones and prevented all this “evil”.
For those who will respond God didn’t want to create robots without free will who would just obey him I have two points:

a) With his foreknowledge he could just follow through and create the ones, who still exercising their free will, would choose to obey. The result would still be free will beings choosing to obey.

b) given a characteristic of God is he is perfect and wanting in nothing, the creation of angels (or anything else) would be superfluous and unnecessary as it wouldn’t add to God’s perfection or satisfaction (and given his subsequent regret, probably detract from it).
 
KevinK said:
God would know ahead of time which angels would rebel. He could have chosen to not create those particular ones and prevented all this “evil”.
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Not necessarily. That’s an assertion that many make – but without knowing that it’s a point that not all agree on.

I think we’d all agree that God knows everything that is. But… does that imply He has knowledge of that which is not? In other words, does He know the color of the eyes of my grandchild whose parent I never give birth to?

It’s known as ‘middle knowledge’, and philosophers dispute whether God has it.

It implies, then, that God does not necessarily know the fate of those whom he does not create; instead, we might only say that he knows the fate of those he does create. Therefore, we can’t say that he knows “ahead of time” who would rebel, such that he could choose not to create them.

(On the other hand, maybe you’re just making an argument that saddles God with human limitations vis-a-vis time. He knows that I am real, because he sees all things in time. However, he sees them because they are all simultaneously real to him, not because they’re “gonna happen at some time in the future.” So, he can’t kill me off 'cause he knows I’m gonna be a bum; that would be unjustified murder… and that’s not who God is.)
 
Gorgias said:
It implies, then, that God does not necessarily know the fate of those whom he does not create; instead, we might only say that he knows the fate of those he does create. Therefore, we can’t say that he knows “ahead of time” who would rebel, such that he could choose not to create them.
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I think if God has the property of omniscience it would include knowing the fate of those he would potentially create. Some people dispute this but I think it logically follows. There is no logical contradictions in knowing the fate of a potential being by an omniscient creator.
 
KevinK said:
I think if God has the property of omniscience it would include knowing the fate of those he would potentially create. Some people dispute this but I think it logically follows. There is no logical contradictions in knowing the fate of a potential being by an omniscient creator.
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I appreciate that this is your opinion, but from a philosophical perspective, it’s an open question. Good points are made on both sides.

I would ask, however, what “those he would potentially create” means. Do you mean all those who he does create plus all those he does not create? Or, do you mean those who he creates in (our) future? The former requires middle knowledge – the latter do not.

The property of ‘omniscience’ does not require knowledge of all that is not – only all that is! 😉
 
KevinK said:
Saying the angels were created “good” contradicts your assertion they had free will to rebel. Are you really saying they were created “neutral” with a 50/50 chance of rebelling? God would know ahead of time which angels would rebel. He could have chosen to not create those particular ones and prevented all this “evil”.
For those who will respond God didn’t want to create robots without free will who would just obey him I have two points:

a) With his foreknowledge he could just follow through and create the ones, who still exercising their free will, would choose to obey. The result would still be free will beings choosing to obey.

b) given a characteristic of God is he is perfect and wanting in nothing, the creation of angels (or anything else) would be superfluous and unnecessary as it wouldn’t add to God’s perfection or satisfaction (and given his subsequent regret, probably detract from it).
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There are no surprises with God. He know everything.

He forces no evil. If He did how could He hold anyone responsible for evil they might do. How then could He punish evil?

He created the angels good. Just as He created Adam and Eve good

If God only allows those creatures He knows in advance will remain good to be created in the first place, then bad would never exist. And looking ahead in time, there would be no need for a savior. Savior from what? Hell.

Bottom line,
  1. God tested the angels. !/3 failed the test.
  2. God is testing us while on this side of eternity. We apparently are doing FAR worse. Only a few of us are saved
  3. God doesn’t create us as robots. He makes us with memory intellect and will. And we are to use them for His glory
 
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Take for example a fetus that dies before birth. Surely God would “know” what its future would have been. Not unlike a “potential” person" not created.
 
KevinK said:
Take for example a fetus that dies before birth. Surely God would “know” what its future would have been. Not unlike a “potential” person" not created.
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Again, you have to define “potential person” – and from the perspective of God, no less!

Since God sees all things that are, this means that a fetus who dies before birth isn’t a potential person. He is – he exists.

The fetus who is never conceived, doesn’t exist. Ever.

There are a couple serious implications of this distinction:
  • If you believe in middle knowledge, then you believe that God “knows” the fetus who doesn’t exist. Not just “knows he will not exist”, but knows everything about him: what color his hair would have been, what the name of his third daughter would have been – everything! (This is the point that philosophers discuss – is such knowledge logical or not? And, if it’s logical, does God’s omnipotence necessarily entail that He actually does have this knowledge, or does such knowledge not attach to the notion of omnipotence?)
  • Whether or not you believe in middle knowledge, God’s knowledge of the fetus who dies prior to birth presents an interesting dilemma. That baby is real; he’s a person; his existence is known to God. Now, one of the things the Church teaches is that God does not annihilate His creation. Once He creates, it would be unjust to destroy utterly; it would be counter to God’s nature to obliterate a soul from existence. If you want to make the claim that God ‘should’ not let the fetus exist, then you’re making one of two cases:
    • if you argue for middle knowledge, you’re suggesting that God perform the action of not-creating that baby. But, if it were in God’s will to create the baby – and God’s will is goodness itself – then you’re asking God to do something against His will and something that is less good than He intended. In this case, middle knowledge leads to the paradox of God being less good than He is.
    • If you don’t argue for middle knowledge, then you’re suggesting that God create the fetus, and then annihilate him. Again, paradox: you’re asking God to destroy a soul, and that’s evil.
So, no matter which way you look at it, the act of undoing a creation is against God’s nature.
 
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